Transcript:Ruhiyyih Khanum/Talk with pioneers in Petionville 20 Nov 1982

Transcript of: Talk with pioneers in Petionville, Haiti 20 Nov 1981 by Ruhiyyih Khanum

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[00:00] I don't know whether you want to listen to what I'm saying friends, because if you do I think we want to start because we don't want to be all up very late and have a long way to go home, it's quarter to eight now. And until they come, I could just tell you what I was about to tell him. I was saying that, he'd asked me about some of the places I went and I said that I tried to go to places where they don't get so many guests because everybody likes to go to Los Angeles, New York, Green Acre, you know, but they very seldom want to go to the very small places and they don't get visitors. They don't get the stimulation. So we went to Magdalen and Cape Breton, and to my intense disappointment, we couldn't get into Miquelon and Saint-Pierre because of the weather situation in Newfoundland, where we were flying from and the situation there. It's absolutely impossible. We waited 24 hours. We couldn't get in. And they were very disappointed. There was nothing we could do about it. But the point is that in many of these small places, the Baháʼís had arranged very good programs and they'd gone an all out effort and I was just about to tell him, and I thought then that maybe everybody'd like to hear it. In Halifax they had arranged a program... we were there what, three nights? Well, I'd ask for one day off because every now and then I knew I'd die if I didn't have a day off. So some places I stayed one extra night and then I said that day that I arrived and perhaps the next day, depending on how tired I was, that's got to be mine to rest. And then I'll start the program. Anyway they had two whole days or three days to make their own arrangements, and I had a day and a half of rest. And at 9 o'clock we met the deputy mayor who was running for mayor. At 10 o'clock, we met the prime minister of Nova Scotia. At 11 o'clock we met the lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia. At half past 2, wait at 2 or half past 2?

[02:10] [Woman speaking] Well you had the lunch then.

[02:12] Well all right, I had to eat after all. [Laughter]. Then we had over half an hour's television program televised. The Baháʼís have their own television program on the air twice a week in Halifax, entirely Baháʼí program. Then I went to a newspaper office, which I don't usually do, but it was late in the afternoon and the only way they could get the article in the paper was if I went to see that reporter in the office so I went. Then that evening was a public meeting. So you see that's quite a lot of pressure. You begin to get up at half past 7 and then you go right straight through to 10 o'clock at night. It was a lot. But what I'm trying to say is look at how they profited from their opportunity. That was the thing that thrilled me. Because they're not a very big community in Halifax. Like all cities, that was small community. But they just did wonders with the whole thing. And there's a Negro in that was in... where was that Negro tree planting ceremony?

[03:16] [Woman speaking] That was also Nova Scotia.

[03:18] That was near Halifax. There is a Negro cultural center that they are building, which is evidently very unique thing. They've been a very deprived community. And they had succeeded in getting this land, getting grants and subsidies and raising money amongst themselves, a poor working population. And - [To newcomer] Hello! Mitch, come here! I haven't seen you at all. Please come sit here my dear. At last I see you. I was going to telephone you and then Farhad said you were coming so I thought I'd speak to you.

[04:00] Anyway, the point is it they had arranged for me to plant a tree as a gift of the Baháʼís for this cultural centre that they were building. And they'd never had a guest before. You see, they never had anybody pay any attention to them in the sense that wanting to go and plant a tree. And it was in the, covered by the television news broadcast. And it was covered by newspapers and of course, a very few people there. But the point is they did it, you see. This is the thing that was so wonderful. It's they made that effort. Really the Baháʼís are marvelous. I don't know whether I have enough of these to go around. I thought I had more, but I don't seem to find them. This is a quotation from Bahá’u’lláh, it's in this new book.

[04:57] [People arriving] Hello Arnold. Well, well, look at Mitchell - Michael I mean. [Laughter]. Hello. Welcome. Hello Stuart! There's another seat here, you know?

[Greetings exchanged and discussion about seating arrangements and a dog that barks loudly in the background.]

[06:06] Anyway, this is a quotation which you'll find in The Desire of the World and I can give one to different families and you could always have a Xerox copy made. I thought it was wonderful to quote in connection with the persecutions. "Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world devouring fire whose violence none can quench." You know, there's so many things in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh that at least I—I don't know about other people—I can't take it all in. And then you find extraordinary statements, you see, that's only three lines. And it's unbelievably powerful. So I'll give one to each family. I'll give one to the family, down at the other end of the line.

[Discussion around distributing the book and a prayer is read in French].

[10:01] You know, in principle that we don't have any distinction between the Baháʼís. I mean the Baháʼís and whether they're the people of the country or the pioneers or whoever they are, it's all the same thing. We're all Baháʼís together. But I think that, particularly in countries like Haiti, where the pioneers are carrying so much of the burden of the progress of the Faith, and there's no denying that they're doing it. Everybody knows it and the people of the country know it too and are grateful for it. The House of Justice knows it, you see. So that to me under those circumstances to meet especially with the pioneers is a perfectly logical thing to do because I can say things and make suggestions and answer questions that I couldn't possibly do if it were a general meeting of the villagers and of different peoples. It wouldn't be possible to do that if we weren't all together talking about the problems and the possibilities. And I think the value of our being together aside from the pleasure of seeing each other, which is a real pleasure for me, is that we can discuss things and bring out thoughts and make any suggestions that we have.

[11:25] I have, I'm sure you want to know and I won't perhaps be able to bring this out tomorrow in the meeting with all of the friends. I've had a very, very wonderful experience here in Haiti. I love Haiti, and I think that the whole occasion of being with the villagers has been one of the happiest things that's happened to me in many, many years because it reminds me of Africa. It brings back some glorious moments of my life when I was able to go out and teach in the villages and able to meet the people. And I think that it has made me so fond of this country that really for two cents I'd come and live here. I can't obviously because of my age and my responsibilities in my home at the World Centre and everything else. But really for two cents, I wouldn't mind in the least living in this country. And I feel that way about very, very few countries in the world, that I'd care to live in. I mean, I'm always happy to be with the people and can adjust myself pretty well to any country. But I don't have the same feeling about other countries since I have about one or two of them. And I think this is a very, very exceptional country and I don't know why it's so exceptional, but I think it is. I think the people are very fine people. I think they're unusually clean, courteous, intelligent, very kindly. You go to the villages, the things that you see you know, when you're down here in Port-au-Prince and Kado, Kado, kado, this attitude they have towards tourists. There's none of that. Very, very seldom in the countryside. The people are absolutely dignified and self-respecting and receptive and as I say a very intelligent and courteous people, a very handsome people. And of course to me, it's one of the most beautiful countries I've been in many, many years, and I'm surprised that nobody ever talks about the sheer scenic beauty of Haiti. I don't know whether people don't look at it or they don't notice it, but I've never heard people rave about the beauty of Haiti. But I can tell you that in my travels this is an exceptionally beautiful country. Just to look at the mountains and the valleys and the inlets and the whole thing. And to look at the stars at night, my goodness. The other night we came out of a meeting at one of these villages and everything was absolutely jet black, and I raised my head. And for the first time in years, I could see the stars. They were all hanging right over my head, you see. It was absolutely glorious. You can't see the stars in Haifa anymore. And of course, obviously in none of the big cities of the world do you ever see the stars anymore. They've forgotten there are stars. But here you can actually see the heavens again. Anyway, it's been a very wonderful experience.

[14:30] Now, if I were going to live in Haiti, I'll tell you where I would live. I would live between Cap and when you start coming down to Gonaives in that park where it's still very tropical and all those gorgeous trees, it's lush. I love tropical vegetation. And the lushness of the countryside on that side is so much greater than on this side here. It's more arid. Obviously, they have less rain and so on. But it's just a lovely, lovely part of the world. And while I'm on the subject of praising Haiti, I would like to say that I think that the pioneers here, particularly those that have children, have an opportunity to pay much more attention to the diet and care of their children than they do in North America or in Europe. I mean even if you go to health food shops, if you're conscious of nutrition, if you're conscious of the values in food that are good for your health and good for your children, there's not too much you could do about it. You know, Violette and I lived for five months in Toronto. And we kept house. We had an apartment and we kept house and did our own cooking and marketing and so on. And they have these marvelous vegetable markets. And I was in there one day we were buying groceries and things to cook, and I heard the sound of violently running water like a hose in a garden, so I turned around and this fellow was hosing these banks of vegetables, cauliflowers and beans and letters and spinach and so on. And I turned to him. I said, "My dear man don't you realize you're destroying every single food value by soaking these things?" Because when you wet vegetables, you leach out all the vitamins. And I said, "You're destroying all the food value in that stuff." Why he said, "Madam, if we didn't do that, we would lose about 75% of what we're trying to sell." So the heck with anything that's left of a food value in it, God knows where it came from in the first place or when it was picked, or how fresh it is or how much it was sprayed. Don't know anything about that, you see. So that just that one thing that you could go out here and buy, maybe it's not the kind of a vegetable that you have in your mind, but you can buy a perfectly nice, clean, fresh vegetable that was picked this morning, and that is very good for you to eat, and especially for your children to eat, you see.

[17:27] When we were in the mountains, of course I enjoy the countries that I'm staying and the first thing I did was to buy a scoop down in the Iron market here and I took that with me and we had a number of meals in hotels where we opened a can of beans because we had no choice obviously. Or we boiled a couple of eggs and then I had my nice little wooden bowl and we could have our salad in that. And we had our knives and our forks and our pepper and our salt and our oil and our vinegar, and we could make a little salad and have something to eat in our bedroom, which we've done very often in many countries. But then I had a gourd that I bought. The gourd is the only one of two that I saw that had a handle. She made it like a basket, a great big gourd. So I got very excited over that I bought the gourd. Well, I've had a number of baths out of that gourd, because I can't stand ice cold water. And a number of the places where we spent the night the water was just like ice. And I don't like it, and I'm not willing to submit to it if I can help it. So we have a little tiny electric coffee, you know, heater or water heater. And one little jug like that divided half for the first gourd of ice water and half for the second gourd of ice water with my scoop. I had a lovely, tepid bath every night, you see. But my point is that you have such fun. There's such fascinating possibilities in even living in a country like this. There's so many crafts. There's so many gorgeous baskets. There's so many wood carvings that you like. You can just buy yourself something that is charming. You can buy yourself any kind of a craft thing. I bought all these little bone dishes. I'm taking them back to different friends in Haifa. And bone boxes. And Violette and I have a practically a whole series of these little cow horn bone dishes. Our jewelry in them, our hairpins' in it, our lipsticks' in it. And you know, we enjoy these things. These are the things of the country. They're inexpensive and they're full of charm. But what I'm trying to say is that, well you can get the maze. You go and buy the maze. You can make corn bread. You can have porridge. You can have cornmeal mush. You can have all kinds of things. You go and buy this roll of stuff. Someone told us what you call this stuff. Who was it?

[Inaudible].

[19:56] Yes you remember. That roll like molasses that we bought when we were near Ash.

[Woman speaking] The brown sugar?

Remember that roll of brown sugar, Arnold, that we bought?

[Arnold speaking] Oh yes, Rapadou[?].

[20:08] Yes, well it's delicious you see. And we bought that. And we got Ed's cook to boil it down so as to be sure it didn't have too many bugs in it because obviously you don't know how it has been prepared or if it had any insects in it. And now we've got a gorgeous thing of the most delicious molasses you ever tasted in your whole life. But my point is that the possibilities just from the standpoint of living here, especially as I say, if you have children. To me, I think anybody that can live here is lucky. Now maybe it's hard for some people, it's so different from North America. They don't have all the luxuries that they are used to. I know lots of people that come to serve at the World Center, they get all upset because the supermarket isn't like the supermarket at home, you know, and so on. But that's just childishness. But it's a wonderful country and the people are such lovely people. As I said, they're so clean. It impressed me that this population is an extraordinarily clean population. You watch the people, they're spotless. I mean people come along, and never mind the school children that are so beautifully dressed in these school uniforms, they just look like a bunch of flowers going down the street. But the actual people are so scrubbed, their clothes are shiny, even if the clothes are old and faded. They are so clean that they're just sparkling, you see. All over the country you see the people constantly washing. Washing themselves and washing their clothes. So to me, it's been a revelation to be able to go back into the countryside in Haiti in depth and to get a little idea of what the actual people are like. And they're a very, very lovely people. And I think that there's a tremendous possibility of teaching them the Faith.

[22:18] Now, one of the things that I feel very strongly is that although there's been an immense progress made during the last two years since I was here, and I think you owe this mainly to the Continental Board of Counselors and to Dr. Farhad who has been coming here - Arbab I mean who's been coming here, who is really a very knowledgeable man, a very lovely Baháʼí and is used to the mass teaching in South America, you see. So he's very properly, as far as I can see from my short period here, analyzed how he could get at helping in depth to fulfill the plan of the House of Justice in this country. And he's got these teams working and people have different areas. And they go out, they go out pioneers and they go out Haitians. Usually it's the pioneers that have the car. Of course the Haitians have the knowledge of their own people, and they have their own Creole language which they speak so much better than any of the pioneers. But this is wonderful. And so much is happening that, as I said the other day, if I had known the progress that had been made here in the last two years, I really sincerely think I might not have come back. Because I came back because when I was here before nothing was happening and I was upset over it. And I remember poor old Hector saying, "Well, why doesn't anybody ever come up to Ash? You go this way and that way but nobody ever comes and teaches in my area, and there's a lot of receptivity there." And this went to my heart and stuck in my mind and I thought, "Well, I'm going back and I'm going to go to Ash where Hector is and I'm going to see if I can help him attract villagers in his area." You see? So as I say, if I'd known how much progress you were making, having an awful lot of work to do particularly this year myself, and tired after all of this long trip that I've just made, I probably would have skipped Haiti. I would say, all right, you know, I miss Haiti, and I'm sorry I can't go but I've got other things to do and Haiti is getting on all right. They don't need me. You see? But I didn't know that, and I came, and it's been a very wonderful experience for me.

[24:43] But I have a very definite impression that although the teams are going back to these places and helping to sustain the communities where they have Spiritual Assemblies, at the same time, they are not doing enough enrolling of new believers. This is my feeling. Now, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Unfortunately, none of the board members are here tonight. Linda's mother's arrived and Joe, I suppose is baby sitting, it's about time that you come out for once. And Rene is down in the town. And I haven't been able to say anything to them, but there's nothing secret about it. I just feel that there is not enough enrollment going on of new people.

[25:39] You know when Shoghi Effendi... it's a very difficult balance and all of us Baháʼís get sidetracked. Maybe because we're not so extraordinary anyway and were naïve, and we're over sincere and trying very hard. But whatever the reason may be for what we do, I think that we get sidetracked on some particular theme that either we think that's more important or captures our imagination or we get all busy on it and forget the other aspect. But Shoghi Effendi when mass conversion, as you know, began in Uganda before he died. And if you have visited Shoghi Effendi's resting place you know there's this globe on top and the continent of Africa faces you, as you look at the monument of the Guardian and the writing. And the eagle, the front of the globe is the continent of Africa. And the Persians didn't like it very much. And sometimes they said to me, "But why Khanum? Didn't you put Asia, the cradle of the Faith"... you see? "The place of all the martyrs", and so on. And I gave them a very straight answer. I said because Africa was the continent that brought joy to the heart of Shoghi Effendi before he died. And it deserved to be there because that's the place that he was made happy before he passed away, which was true because of the mass conversion.

[27:18] Now, they began to teach up in the north of Uganda about 200 miles from the capital city, in the Teso district. It's a very long story, we can't go into it now. And they had, I think, the first 200 Baháʼís wasn't it? And they informed Shoghi Effendi that they had 200 African Baháʼís in the Teso district and he was absolutely thrilled. And he informed the whole Baháʼí world. Well to make a long story short, before he died it reached 2,000 and the enthusiasm of these new Baháʼís was just like a running fire in the grass. You never saw anything like it. Then the pioneers way off in Uganda in Kampala, they got scared. They said, all of these people are coming in, hundreds of people. What are we going to do with them? They don't know anything about the Faith. Their ancestors weren't martyrs and they haven't been third and fourth generation Baháʼís and so on. And they got frightened. They said we have to consolidate. So they stopped this wave of teaching, just like a tidal wave, and they hung onto the tail of the thing and said now we have to deepen them in the Faith and we have to consolidate, you see. And Shoghi Effendi didn't get any news. And he got very distressed and he cabled and asked why he wasn't getting news of new enrolments. Well anyway to make a long story short, some of the pioneers came at that period to the Pilgrim House table, they were pilgrims in Haifa, and he pointed out to them that it was very dangerous, that they must never stop the teaching work. That whatever they did they must never stop the teaching work. It must go on. All right, you go behind the wave of new enrollments and you do the best you can to deepen and consolidate. And eventually you do deepen and consolidate. But it's all a question of relativity, you see. But he was very distressed when he found that this had been arrested for a period so they could consolidate and he said they must never do this. Now, the interesting thing is that in that area in Uganda, where a mass conversion began in the Baháʼí Faith—in the sense that we would call it mass conversion—except dozens or something twenties or thirties or whatever it was here and there, they never recaptured the momentum. Never. They did something to it. I don't know how to describe it like a baby being born. You can't arrest the process of the baby being born, you know, and say, "Well, wait a minute now. We're just not quite ready. Just hang around for a while. We'll go on with this a little bit later on." It doesn't work that way, you see. And this is what they tried to do. And from that day to this, they never recaptured the momentum in that part of Uganda, because you mustn't stop a thing like that.

[30:30] Now if there's going to be the entry by troops, if there's going to be a Baháʼí World Order, if we're going to have Baháʼí teachings incorporated in society, because really the whole of the practical side of the teachings, I mean aside from prayer and the moral principles and living the life, and so on, all of the Baháʼí teachings require society to implement them. They're not something that we just implement a few of us here and there in our families, that's the personal side. But the whole revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is to create a society, a new world order. Well you can't do that without millions of people, you see. So you can't not bring in people into the Faith constantly. Now, obviously that's going to create a lot of problems. What are we going to do, for instance, if suddenly for reasons that we can't foresee, a thousand people in Montreal want to become Baháʼís tomorrow? They said, "Well all right, we wanna be Baháʼís. Whatever it is, we believe it. Let us in." What are you gonna do? Say "go away?" "We don't think that you're fitted for it?" Or "We're going to start a series of study classes. Wait a while 'til we get around to starting one in your neighborhood then we'll see whether we think you are worthy to be admitted into the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh." Then the next Manifestation of God will come after at least 1,000 years and we won't have any Baháʼí society established because we won't have had the bulk of the human race become Baháʼís. Now, everything, every step forward creates problems. There's no doubt about it. But in my whole life, and my faith also tells me, that every time their are problems in the Cause, the Cause solves the problems, you see, because it is the Cause of God. So you must never be afraid of the problems that may arise. You or I can't foresee how we would meet many things that could happen. We say, "Well what about our manpower? But what about our possibilities? But they don't know anything about the Faith! What kind of Baháʼís are they going to be? What kind of administrators?" But that's not our problem. If we, each of us, do what is our possibility, and that's why I like to talk to the pioneers because that's why they came here. It was because they wanted to do what was possible for them, to help the Faith progress in Haiti. Pure and simple, you see.

[33:09] If we each do our part, the doors will open for other problems to be solved. And I think that we have to have the confidence to understand that. I mean, I can remembers a girl for instance, wondering "How would we ever get a Baháʼí ruler into the Faith?" Oh, if you think that it's only your generation that sits down and does metaphysical hair splitting, and you should have heard us in Montreal 50 years ago. We're doing the same thing, you see. But if we do that, then how would they be enrolled and how would they do, and who's control and wo-wo-wo, politics and non-politics and God knows what... Well what happens? The Malietoa, the king of Samoa is taught by individual Baháʼí family who knew him and he accepts the Faith. What does the House of Justice do? They just lean across into the Pacific Ocean and grab him. And he's never been ungrabbed from that day to this. He is in the palm of the hand of the House of Justice. All decisions concerning the Malietoa are not anything to do with the Counselors, the National Assembly - nothing -, the House of Justice. It's on an entirely different level. They have fostered this man. They have brought him up in the Faith. He has a love for the House of Justice and a confidence in it that very few Baháʼís have. How did he get it? First of all, [name?] taught him who was a rock, a very wonderful person. And second, the House of Justice sent very prominent Baháʼís, very selected Baháʼís, various Hands of the Cause mainly, to go all the way to Samoa to see him especially. Not anybody, but special ones to bring him up in his knowledge and understanding of the Faith. In the beginning he didn't really want to let on that he was a Baháʼí. And now he just stands up openly and says, I'm a Baháʼí and the whole of his people know it, you see. So it's a tremendous thing. Well, who did it? The House of Justice did it, and it's done on an entirely different level. So here you had what to our little minds would have been a terrific problem. "Oh, what do we do with the ruler" and this and that and the other thing. And the House of Justice just takes the whole thing and lifts it up and solves the whole problem. There isn't any problem. He's not under the National Assembly. It has nothing to do with him. It doesn't consult him and he doesn't consult it. And Baháʼís arrived there and they say, "Oh, can we go and see the Malietoa?" And the answer's, "No you can't. He's a king, he's busy and you can't go and see him." [Laughter.]

[36:05] The Cause has solutions. As the problem arises, the Cause will solve the problem. Now we're given the guidance by the House of Justice what to do. Another extremely peculiar thing, if you think about it in our religion, and I've thought about it over and over and over. It's really mind shattering. You have to go out—I mean you don't have to, but you should or could—go out and teach the Cause of God to other people. Well, I think that in 20 minutes my personal conviction is that you can pretty well outline the whole of the Baháʼí Faith in 20 minutes. You can tell them what progressive revelation is. You can place Bahá’u’lláh historically. You can take the present state of the world. You can take the answer to the needs of the new state of the world in the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh. You can tell them that we believe in the life after death and the power of prayer, and this and that and the other thing. You can pretty well without going into all the details, convey the whole Baháʼí religion in 20 minutes to half an hour. Then supposing that person either intellectually or instinctively through their heart wants to accept it. You have to accept him because that's in the teachings too. The House of Justice has made that clear. This is what's happening in the villages all over the world, you see. They say, "I want to be a Baháʼí." We say, "Come along, You're welcome. You wanna be a Baháʼí. You think you really understand this is from God for this day? Yallah, come on, we'll be very happy to welcome you in to and enroll you", you see. Then what happens? The moment you've got nine adults on April the 21st you have to elect a spiritual assembly. You can't say, "I don't consider that they're not mature enough to have their spiritual assembly." Because says whenever you have nine adult Baháʼís, you have to form the spiritual assembly. Which of course is I say is practically brain-shattering because they don't know anything and they don't know how to function and so on, you see. Well then there must be a reason for it. If this is what we are supposed to do, then we better have confidence in it and do it to the best of our ability.

[38:35] Then you come to the state of the development of the people. One of the things that has irritated me in the last 25 years since Shoghi Effendi passed away and I've been traveling so much, is that the Baháʼís consider that new Baháʼís should be mature. Now, we're not the least surprised that she has to take that little baby over there on her knee and that the other child is only four or whatever his age is. And we don't expect him to react the way a child of 10 would, or 12 or 15 or an adult. We don't even remotely expect because he's little. He's a child. He's a baby. How can you expect him to be other than he is at this age, you see? But we haven't this much understanding of baby Baháʼís. This is the thing that always astonishes me. It doesn't surprise us that the human race should be, you know, babies and little children and then bigger and then adolescents and then grow up. We're perfectly used to that, but we have no patience with our Baháʼí babies. They've just come into the Cause. How can they be, unless they're very, very mature spiritually and exceptional people, how can they be considered adult? How can you expect them to bear the weight of responsibility on their little backs when they're so young and so tender in the Faith? And this has always astonished me with the Baháʼís because we really actually demand that perfectly inexperienced new Baháʼís, even say they've read a couple of books or something, we expect them to be like us and to bear the same responsibility with as much or as little knowledge as we have, as we are bearing. And it's a very, very unfair thing. It's a very unreasonable attitude.

[40:40] So it seems to me as I started out to say, that my feeling here is that you're doing exactly what you can do and should do with this team teaching. I think it's wonderful. I think it's very important. But, I think that when the teams go out, whatever else they're doing, and I don't know exactly what they do do, that they should at the same time make it possible to, if they come on the fringe of another area or there's another village a little bit beyond that or there are people in the meetings—there are always every meeting in this part of the world and in the whole of African and Asia is always full of non-Baháʼís, people who... I mean in theory you're going to have a meeting with the Baháʼís but have you ever had one with just the Baháʼís? Of course not. Half the audience is all non-Baháʼís. You can't say, "Get out. You're not a Baháʼí. Where's your card or I won't let you in under the tree or something?" That's perfectly ridiculous. So they're welcome to come in and then you have to start teaching them too, you see. So all right, if you're going to have to teach them, you might just as well see if some of them want to become Baháʼís and enroll them. But our experience, the places that we have been to was that here in Haiti, we found in the villages—I'm not talking about the members of the National Assembly or the community here in Port-Au-Prince, I'm talking about out in the villages—remarkably mature and devoted Baháʼís. Really, people that obviously with my experience of the believers all over the world, are obviously really reliable, devoted Baháʼís of capacity, you see. Now, they may have been Baháʼís for years and had very little help and deepening. They may have been the Baháʼís for months and the same thing would apply, but you have that caliber of Baháʼís here. And it's been very, very revealing to me and immensely encouraging to meet people like that, so that I think that obviously the Faith all over the world is standing on the threshold of something entirely different. And here in Haiti, it's doing exactly the same thing, so that I think you have tremendous events ahead of you. I think you've turned a big corner here in Haiti. The opening of that school, the fact that the president sent his representative, that the ministers one of them came, that the people of importance from different ministries were present, that it was reported on the news you see. All of this is a tremendous turning point in history of the Faith in Haiti. And then you have all of these communities that are beginning to develop and to come up, you see.

{{t|43:51} I made some notes about things I wanted to say. Another impression that I had, I had a couple of suggestions to make of a concrete kind, aside from what I've just said. I wish to God that the Baháʼís, I don't care who they are, but if the pioneers who are in this room anyway are going to go out and teach, for goodness sake, make it a point of teaching people that the purpose of speech is to be heard. You know, I'm tired of going to Baháʼí meetings where one of the Baháʼís, maybe a Baháʼí of 50-years standing, maybe a very distinguished Baháʼí is asked to read a prayer. And they say, [in a soft voice] "Oh my God, biah biah biah." Well maybe she can hear it, but you can't hear it. What am I bothering to read it out loud for? Let me hand you a prayer book. You read to yourself and I'll read to myself. The purpose of speech is to be heard. And I've noticed in some of these meetings, I've said to the children, "Speak up. Make it possible for people to hear what you're saying." And you know that some of, you may remember, some of these tiny things, seven and eight years old, the next time they raise their voice and spoke louder so you could hear them at the back of the room. A little tiny child would take this instruction into their minds, and you tell adults and they still go on mumbling in their beards. And I think that the Baháʼís should call this to the attention of villagers. They don't even know it. Occasionally you get somebody with the beautiful, lots of them read the prayers in these meetings we've been having in the villages. Every now and then you get somebody who actually projects their voice so that everybody in the room can hear the word of God, but otherwise they sit there and [speaks in a soft voice]. What are you praying for? Forget it. And that's one of the things I think we should teach the friends.

[46:08] Another thing that I think that all of the Baháʼí teachers, and now I'm naturally talking to people in this room, I think that you must call to the attention of whoever it may be, whether it happens to be a Haitian or a traveling teacher, one of yourselves, that you must not teach the Faith by don'ts. I was very surprised in one of the meetings, one of the Haitian Baháʼís got up and was talking about the Faith, and very nicely but said, "Drinking is forbidden in the Baháʼí Faith." You have no right to say that, you see. You have actually no right to say that, because you can't make it a condition of membership. And that's in writing from Shoghi Effendi. What you can make a condition of enrollment is: you believe in the Báb as the forerunner, Bahá’u’lláh as the Manifestation of God, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as the Exemplar, and the present day administrative order. And you can try and convey that. As I say, if you can't convey that in 20 minutes, then you shouldn't be a Baháʼí yourself because it's very simple. You can easily convey it in 20 minutes. All right, and then they have a right to accept it if they believe in it and feel it's the right thing. Of course if the person is dead drunk or a bum, or somebody that's looking for a handout, you will try not to let them be enrolled, you see. But normally if a person then wants to become a Baháʼí you enroll them, and you can't tell them that they can't have two wives, that they mustn't commit adultery because it's not looked upon with favor in the Baháʼí religion, that they're not allowed to drink because it's the law of Bahá’u’lláh, they mustn't take hashish cause that's the law Bahá’u’lláh, and so you can't add all those things to it, you see. All those come gradually with the process of deepening the person who has been accepted into the Faith. And I think that you must make that clear that in teaching the Faith, they must not begin with all the don'ts. But just begin with the glory of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh and what He's come into the world to do and to accomplish. And do you want to be a part of it? And doesn't it seem to you to be perhaps the truth? And if they say yes then say, "Come on, you're welcome. If you want to come in, come in." You see? But not then, of course you have to go on and help them to a deeper understanding.

[48:31] But if they will understand, which after all is the crux of the whole thing, that this is from Almighty God and that Bahá’u’lláh is the mouthpiece of God. Therefore, what He says is correct and that He's brought the solution for the problems of this age and for say 1,000 years. Now if they accept that, then when you come and say, "But this one whom you have accepted is coming from God tells you that for your own good, you see, you mustn't drink. Or for your own good you mustn't take drugs. For your own good you must try and live a good moral life and have good moral behavior" and so on, you see, then you begin to teach them. That this is what Bahá’u’lláh wants you to be like and you help them, that is deepening. I don't think that deepening is how many seconds you are permitted to raise your right hand to vote. I wouldn't call that deepening, would you? In other words, all these little trivialities, this isn't deepening. Nor is it deepening frankly, in United States of America or anywhere else, just nonsense. Well that seems to be the end for the moment of my impressions.

[49:56] [Woman speaking] What's the others?

[49:58] [Flipping through papers] No that's, those are things I want to call the attention to National Assembly, suggestions. Well, some of them can be discussed on more than one occasion, nothing private about them but... I don't know whether, I don't even know who if anybody in this room is concerned with it, I've never seen the Baháʼí news of Haiti. I mean, I know we have it at the World Centre, but then I don't see any except the International Baháʼí News Letter because I'm too busy or I'm traveling, one of the other. But I have for a long time thought, now I don't know whether it would apply here or not frankly, but I know it would have applied, say to amongst the Indians of Bolivia or Peru. Whether it applies with this population I don't know, because I haven't got the experience to know. But I've often thought that if you would, if the National Assembly could send out a newsletter, even one sheet of very simple news to the Baháʼís, and then either on the back of that same sheet or alternatively two sheets of paper, translations from the teachings. That if they could get something like that in their hands once every 19 days, in other words the 19 Baháʼí months, first of all they'd be reminded that there is such a thing as a Baháʼí month. And then that loose piece of paper they can be encouraged to build up their reading materials, you see, because they haven't anything in hand.

[51:52] Now, another thing that I'd like to have to ask if anybody can answer, my impression is, just from the meetings that I've been having and listening to my translations by different people, that the dialect is quite different for instances in Cap from in Les Cayes and this side, you see. Well, what are you doing to meet the need? I don't know what the National Assembly is doing. I'm gonna ask them tomorrow when I have a chance to talk to them. But what are they, what are the Baháʼís here doing to meet that need? Are they sitting down wasting their whole blasted existence on whether this professor's Creole is better than that professor's? Or this committee's decision is better than that committee's? I know all of these things. All over the world you will come to a country where the Baháʼís are dying to have something in their own dialect and they're not getting it because the government can't agree on which dialect it's going to use. Or the Baháʼís themselves can't agree whether A dialect is better than B dialect. So they don't do anything at all and the Baháʼís don't get anything to read of the word of God in their own language. And I think that this is of tremendous importance that people should have every month if it were me, if it could be done, a sheet of paper with some of the Hidden Words, some of the prayers, some of the apposite and important teachings, and God knows its been beautifully and simply stated in the Baháʼí writings, in their own form of Creole. If you could find a Creole that is more or less understood by the whole nation, alright go ahead and send it out in that. If you can't, then surely the Baháʼís in Les Cayes area should be able to do something comparable so that the people in their village district are getting something that they can read in their own language and understand.

[53:56] We have letters from Shoghi Effendi, because people were, you know, perfectionists just as much then as they are now. And they would say, "Oh, but you know, we want to have it perfect and the translation is very bad. And that old translation made by Martha Root, the professors at the Sorbonne or something or other don't consider that it is good. And it's a pity that we should debase the teachings into bad language" and so on. Shoghi Effendi said all of this could be bettered in the future. The important thing is to get the Writings into the hands of the new Baháʼís, so they can read it! You want them to be deepened but what are you doing to help them to be deepened? You're splitting a lot of metaphysical hairs. I don't mean you. I mean a lot of people all over the world in comparable situations who often are not of the country, often pioneers are being precisionists and fussing and stewing and the man in the village still hasn't anything to read in his own language, you see.

[54:59] Now Ed told me and Susan that in their area some of the students that Ed has been contact in the university who accepted the Faith, and this very nice girl, Suzette - isn't that her name? - who was a school teacher have been doing some translations into Creole. Well you don't have to publish a great big tome in fancy print. All you have to do is to mimeograph some material that they have translated. All right, let the National Assembly say Father, Son and Holy Ghost, doesn't matter, but just let's get it out to the people, you see. Let them have something so that they get the spiritual nourishment and that would be one of the most active forms you might say of deepening. There's another thing that I feel that they should be doing here in Haiti. And mind you, I don't know what you're doing, you see. I've met with the National Assembly for one hour and that was all and how do I know what you're doing? But these are my reactions to this trip, and some of the thoughts that I have on the subject.

[56:15] And I think also, I didn't have the impression, and if any of you can correct me I'd be very grateful. I didn't get the impression, but it doesn't mean that I'm right, that the local believers know that they should be teaching and enrolling Baháʼís. Now, what's the name of this place? Where Hector, what's the name of that village? [Audience answers] Thomazeau. Well, there's a very fine Baháʼí there. Do you remember his name? [Audience member reply] Yes, all right. He was so excited because he had three or four enrollments after the meeting and he knew exactly what he was doing. He was a well-educated man. Was he the school teacher? [Audience member: He was a minister for a while...] Well all right, he's an educated man, and he was absolutely tickled to death. And he got ahold of these people that said they wanted to become enrolled, and he filled out their cards and told them where to sign it and gave them the three places and said, "One is for you, one for the NSA, and one for the local assembly." And he was absolutely delighted, you see. You could see the way the man leapt at this this opportunity of enrolling new people and having them enter the Faith of God, you see. Now you ought to get more people doing that. Maybe you have. I don't know. I'm not one of your teams. I don't know what you're all doing, but that's what you should be doing. Well now that's, I've made my speeches. Now if anybody wants to discuss different points or bring out different points I'd be delighted. Maybe you can answer some of my questions.

[58:12] [Woman speaking] I think there was the question about the peace letter. There is a bulletin being published...

How often does it go out?

[Woman speaking] About every two months?

And how big is it?

[Woman speaking] About 25-26 sheets.

[58:30] Well you see, Jillian I haven't seen it, and I dare say that it's a very comprehensive thing, but I'm wondering whether 19 sheets of paper printed on both sides, wouldn't be better for the villages in 25 sheets, three times or four times a year. You see what I'm getting at? Because I don't know whether they are readers. You see, lots of people will, even I, I tell you I'm appalled nowadays when somebody hands me 25 sheets of paper I nearly faint! My whole life is being snowed on with pieces of paper. I hate the sight of a piece of paper. Well of course they're not in that position but the point is that maybe 25 sheets of paper jammed full of information in very good French is too much for them. I think it would be perhaps better if they could get it in smaller and more easily assimilated doses. And as I said something that would be specifically a sheet where they would be told by traveling teachers and their local assemblies and whoever it is, their National Assembly naturally in its own bulletin that if you save this, you will be building up some very precious things to memorize and to teach from which you will have in your own home. This will be the beginning of your own little Baháʼí book.

[59:58] [Woman speaking] Rúhíyyih Khánum, this suggestion has come from the National, its been talked about several times. And more recently it was decided that the National Teaching Committee would be asked to do something.

[1:00:11] Like that? Well you see that answers my question, that makes me very happy because I really I think that they're hungry. They'd be delighted, some of them. Of course, some of them any kind of a piece of paper may not be of much use to them. And then of course you have the problem here the way you have in so many countries of the world of getting the piece of paper to the villagers. That's a terrific thing, there's no rural delivered, there's no post office. There's nothing.

[1:00:41] [Woman speaking] But it would not be that difficult because there is always a Baháʼí, all the pioneers coming from different place who could take them and bring them home and distribute over there.

[Woman speaking] Well the teaching teams usually at least minimum once a month so there would be some distribution there.

[Woman speaking] An interesting thing too if we can reduce the 25 pages let's say to five pages so with the same amount of money we can print more bulletins.

[1:01:12] Yes but you see, if you don't mind my saying so, I have had a vast experience. For 16 years I was Shoghi Effendi's secretary. I've lived at the World Center 45 years; since the teaching center was formed I've been on it, so I must have had quite a lot of experience. And my observation is that we Baháʼís of our category, educated Baháʼís, highly civilized if you want to, you know, urbans. I don't know what you want to call us. Anything. Our kind of Baháʼí, we have an attitude that we should bring those villagers up to our standard, so we patronize them with things that we understand and which they don't understand, and we think they should. And we think we should, as I say, raise them to our standard by giving them materials which they don't know how to handle or assimilate. Instead of saying our duty is to see that that little child gets what it needs because it's only four years old, we say, "Oh no, the child now I'm gonna treat him just as if he were 20 years old. I'm going to ignore the fact he's only four. That's nonsense. He can pretend he's 20." Well he can't. None of his functions are 20-year-old functions.

[1:02:40] [Man speaking] Maybe we can ? the arts, Ruhiyyih Khanum you were talking about your radio programs, [?], and how valuable you thought using radio would be...

[1:02:48] Well, I want to go into this very, very seriously. And I don't know why I shouldn't talk about it here. I want to talk about it to the National Assembly. I want to talk about it to the House of Justice. I'm going to write a report to the Counselors and send it to Arbab, he can share it with whom he pleases. I consider that it's really with the possibilities in Haiti of small radio stations. It's almost inconceivable that somehow or other somewhere in this country, we can't begin to have broadcast. Now again, the Baháʼís always want to do something on an idealistic scale, you know, way up here. All right, you got a school, you have to run the school on a scale way up here because it's an educational institution. But if you could just lease time on the radio, who was it told me that $60 a month? Who has told me? Ed, Ed said that they had an opportunity for $60 a month to have what was it, three hours a day?

[Audience reply] No, seven minutes seven days a week.

How many hours?

[Woman speaking] It's 49 minutes a week.

[1:04:049] All right, 50 minutes a week. You mean 50 minutes total a week? All right, forget the details. Supposing that you have - I know... let's back up a minute. When I was not - I wasn't there, but this developed afterwards. We saw that Paraguay had a budget of about, I think, $1,200 a year, for many years. I don't know whether we're still doing that or whether its gone further than that. They bought time on the radio for that which just saturated the country with Baháʼí programs. Why build a radio station? Why send somebody in there technician to run it? You see what I mean? You have to have housing and salary and support them and they have to live there. And you have to be sure they'll stay with it, when for a very nominal sum you can rent the facilities, you see. Now why you're not doing that because certainly the money would be forthcoming immediately. Why you're not doing it, I presume, is because you haven't got the material.

[Woman speaking] Among other things, yes.

[1:05:15] Well, all right, but you've got lots of know-how in the Baháʼí Faith. You get ahold of a bunch of tapes. One of these, I spoke on three radio stations in Cap. There was only one I didn't, I think I gave out or something. Or they weren't there. It was raining or something. But anyway, three out of four, I spoke. Well, one of them was like a dog kennel. Here was a fellow sitting here and he had piles of tape all around him and ghastly noises going all the time and he had a little mic in front of him. And he just kept shoving these things over the air, you see. He'd take this tape and shove that on, and this tape and he'd make an announcement of a paid advertisement and so on. It's as simple as ABC. But why shouldn't we Baháʼís make a collection? You've got loads of people. You've got people like Greg who's interested in this kind of thing, and many Baháʼís who are knowledgeable in this field. Find out what kind of music would be new so that they'd want to listen to the Baháʼí program. I don't know whether the people here would like the Negro spirituals. They're in English. But this, the voices, Fisk Jubilee Singers. Have you ever heard anything like them? You think you've died and you've gone to the Abhá Kingdom. Well they're not deaf. They can understand. Although they may not know the words in English, the beauty of the music they can understand. The great songs of Paul Robeson, tell them. He's one of the greatest Negro singers that has ever lived in the world, you see. And hear his songs. And some of the Indian music is so melodious, especially the music that has the background of the drum. The sagas of Mauritius are very similar to the music of Haiti, you see, with his drum background. And also a kind of Creole French.

[1:07:05] Well you can get interesting music. It won't sound like everybody else's station. Try it out and see how the people respond to it. You might find that being in a musical, they would like this and listen to the Baháʼí station because it had a different kind of music. And then read excerpts from the teachings that are general in natures. And say of course this is the Baháʼí program. You don't really have to say more than that. And then general things from the writings, prayers—a prayer for children, a prayer for the dead, a prayer for whatever the occasion is—some of these marvelous excerpts from the teachings, and get the local committee in Les Cayes, because a different dialect there, in Cap another dialect, to speak these things onto the tape so that you could put them on the radio. And that will go out to people in the dialect that they understand, which of course the whole point, who cares if they understand the upper crust French of Port-au-Prince? That's not the point. I think that really what I've seen of the community here: first, you have Haitians that can help now with the translation and certainly can read it beautifully. See what I mean? Then you have pioneers who have a lot of technical skills who could organize getting these tapes ready, and then you just buy time go to town on it.

[1:08:45] [Woman speaking] Rúhíyyih Khánum, I would like to... I know you say that we should translate in different parts, you know. If we make a tape here, you know, of the program, you know, and we send it to Cap, I don't know if Cap has the [Creole word probably??] to-

They must have small radio stations. In Cap, they have four.

[Woman speaking] No, no, no. If we send a cassette over there and they have to translate in the Creole of Cap, you know, isn't that what you say?

No, no, no, no. You're crazy. I said - excuse me. You send the music, the cassette in music. Then you have, let them make their own program. It doesn't matter. Let them make a committee in Cap.

[Woman speaking] Well how are we going to tape... [overlapping speech]

[1:09:34] Look ask, there are people here, I don't know which ones of you. There are plenty of young men in this room that know how to record. So what you do, you arrange that they should take this and this and this of the writings. You read it and see how many minutes it's going to take, you see, for your program. That's very simple. Then you get some of your young school teachers, your young students in Cap, in Les Cayes, some of your nice assistants you've got there, the ones that we met, plenty of people! The talent is there. And you get them to record these, to read these things.

[Woman speaking] On the tape?

[1:10:15] Sure. And then you've got the tape in your hand, you see. That's not a problem, but the trouble is that we're so tied up in the bow knots of machinery nowadays, you know, 'til you get going on, 'til somebody takes a decision, until somebody else gets the person in front of the thing that they're going to dictate. Or they get the excerpt and choose it and then gets it translated into the local Creole, but I think you've got to do this. I think that now is the time in Haiti. You've certainly the money to buy time on the radio before it comes.

[1:10:52] [Woman speaking] I have a question to ask about the radio programming itself. We're working, preparing programs, but, I don't know, it's almost like I feel that there should be a beginning to it in the concept of the program, like the way the programs will be initiated. Like the first type of subject that would be going in the air will almost be like introductory, who we are and what kind of message we're bringing.

[1:11:17] Well that's useless, excuse me. I'll tell you why, because first of all they'll forget it. Second of all, you can't keep repeating it all the time because they'll get bored to death, you see? So why don't you just go on and say, [French?...]. And then you say a few things, [French]. And you read a nice little prayer and then you say, [French]. And you take some nice excerpts and you put it in Creole and somebody reads it and then you start with your music, you see. So you could even have an hour's program to begin. And then you say, [French]. Then gradually, people begin to say, [French]. All right, they start listening. Then eventually along comes a Baháʼí, they'll say, "I'm a Baháʼí. La estasyon Baháʼí, that's me." You see? [French]. This is the way to do it. You don't want to make a big speech and an opening and a song and dance in the beginning. I wouldn't, because I don't think it'll have any effect. And it'll irritate the missionaries. Keep a low profile.

[Stuart speaking] What you are saying then is we should concentrate on translating the writings themselves into Creole and transmitting that over the air?

[1:12:51] Well, I think, Stuart, you have to remember certain things. According to every religion, including our own, the word of the Manifestation is the word of God which is the bread of life. And nothing else is, neither the words of Shoghi Effendi, the House of Justice, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. It has not the same effect. The word of the Manifestation of God transforms the world. Now we don't want to visualize the Cause with one word less of what ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has said and given us or Shoghi Effendi or today the House of Justice. It's not the word of God, so it's extremely important to me that there should always be even a small section, some of the Hidden Words, some of the passages Bahá’u’lláh. You have these marvelous excerpts; translate them into simple Creole. [French] Bahá’u’lláh [French] Baháʼí. And then just read it, you see? And then if you want to take other excerpts or you find other material, certainly you're going to need more than just that. You can't have a half an hour program of reading the writings of Bahá’u’lláh. That's too concentrated and too involved, but it can be done.

[1:14:12] You know when we were in Belize, which is another very small country, they had been given time on the national radio and they had a Baháʼí program for a long time, and the Baháʼís began to proselytize. And the government took the program back because everybody was complaining that they're thrusting this religion over the radio down our throats. All right, nothing happened. I think two years suspended. Two years they couldn't get it on the air at all in Belize, because they'd spoilt their own chances through being foolish and doing what Bahá’u’lláh said don't do, proselytizing. So along comes an American and English girl, very lovely young women and the National Assembly encourages them to try and get things on the air. And they get back a Baháʼí program which comes on, is it once a week? Well anyway I forget... [Audience member replies]. It's once a week, optimum time and they have chosen one of these Baháʼí songs. I don't particularly like Baháʼí songs, but this happened to be very beautifully sung. God is one and man is one and everything is one, you know I hate that song. It's so stupid. But the point is that it happened to be a lovely, a lovely group of voices and they had these very nice little things that were on it, you see, excerpts that were suitable, no shoving it down people's throats, no propaganda. But this was the Baháʼí program. The whole country was listening to it and it was on the government radio. And they were delighted to have them on that program because they were intelligent, you see. They did it just the right degree, the right kind of program and the right degree.

[1:16:08] [Woman speaking] Well, I think that if we did have a radio program, I think it would help to eliminate some of this reluctance to do mass enrollment [Khanum: On whose part?] like we were doing before because you see what we're doing now is we're concentrating on families and going from families and to neighbors. You see, it's not like we were doing at the beginning where we were enrolling everywhere all over the place, and then having problems with follow-up. But if we had a radio program we certainly could feel that at least there is some follow-up on the airwaves even if people cannot go in the very isolated areas.

[1:16:57] Well, I tell you, I think that one of the great handicaps of the human race is that we are not sufficiently well-balanced or intelligent to be moderate. You see, Bahá’u’lláh says this is the religion of moderation. He recommends moderation. And Shoghi Effendi over and over again, he said this is the religion of the golden mean. This is the religion of the middle of the way, neither this extreme or that extreme. And the Baháʼís are constantly going to extremes. Now you want to consolidate the families. It's tremendously important because the family is the unit of society. So if you could get the family to have prayers, the family to want to bring other people into the Faith and the family to become more or less consolidated as a Baháʼí family, that's of great importance but it doesn't mean you can't do anything else. You see the Baháʼís, I see because I travel so much, they get ahold of this passage of the House of Justice: attract the people of importance. So every Tom, Dick and Harry won't leave Chicago because he thinks he should stay there and attract the people of importance. Balance, balance, balance.

[1:18:26] [Woman speaking] Well I agree, I think we should come to a conclusion about which theme we're going to use on the radio program because I think we had three meetings, we keep talking about what we were just on that one topic for such a long time.

[1:18:37] Well that's because you're talking and not taking any action, you see. If you just try, I think that what you should do, I know what I'd do. Let's put it this way. Supposing I live in Cap or here, let's take Cap because I think I've only had experience with three stations in Cap. And when I saw what two of those stations were like, I just laughed. I said the Baháʼís can buy time on this thing. They can put up a station like this but then you'd have to have someone to run it. Then you run into money and complications as I know from all over the Baháʼí world. Do you know how long it took us to get that thing in Otavalo going? The first one in Ecuador, it killed us. Until we got people to go down there and set up that radio station, that Baháʼí one in Otavalo in Ecuador, my God I thought we'd never get it out of our hair. Because it was so shaky and we didn't have the manpower and the person who was running it went home and nobody to take their their place. And how are you gonna take it off the air when all the Indians and all the [?] are sitting there and listening to it and so on, you see? It's very complicated. But if you hire time, then it seems to me, even if it's only a 15-minute program, three times a week or a 15-minute daily, but take off a little bit. Bite off a small mouthful. And supposing it was three times a week 15 minutes, alright that's not too much of a problem. I'm very poor at mathematics, but you should be able to get six months of 15-minute programs with a little bit of reading in Creole in the beginning and follow it up with some nice music afterwards to be ready to go. It shouldn't be all that difficult. Really, it shouldn't.

[1:20:29] [Woman speaking] I think what we tend to get stuck on, I know for myself, is perfection. I wanted it perfect. And what I'm saying is, for this we should just let go of that and give it our best, try but not worry about well what is it going to sound like, is this the right beat or the right tempo, you know, because I feel that that's what's slowing us down a lot.

[1:20:51] Yes but you'd be using regular commercial music that has been - you're not going to start writing music, are you? [inaudible] ...pick out good bands with good music from here, there, and everywhere and put it on the radio.

[Woman speaking] I think what put a stop was when somebody said something about copyrights. We'd be violating copyright of the music.

[1:21:15] Well then look, it's very simple. Walk into that station that I broadcast over in Cap where they had hundreds of tapes lying all around the room and ask him how he face the copyright on using that music. Just like that.

[Woman speaking] I agree entirely with you. It's a marvelous idea.

[1:21:51] Now I am by nature prone myself to perfection. And it has its advantages because it meant that if I did something for Shoghi Effendi, he had a fair chance of getting it pretty well done because I was a perfectionist. On the other hand, it's wasted an awful lot of time in my whole life because I fuss so much, you see, because I'm fussy because I'm a perfectionist. But we shouldn't sacrifice. There's a question again with the [?], we should realize that this is a crisis in human history, as much as all of you can do you'd better get cracking at it because you haven't got forever, you see.

[1:22:47] [Woman speaking] There's a chapter in To Move the World, the book of Louis Gregory on Haiti. Linda [?] mentioned that the chapter is in there and I was reading the book so I passed and went right to it in the land and I read it, and it was moving for me to sort of hear it from that distance about Haiti and what Louis Gregory had to say about how the progress of Haiti will happen. I can't remember, it was on the very last paragraph, the very last sentence of his letter. When he talks about it to either the pioneers or the Haitians themselves that it will get this country moving.

[1:23:36] Well, it would be a combination but now they've got so many good Baháʼís here that the pioneers don't have to do it alone. They've got help and they're going to increasingly get help from the Haitians.

[Woman speaking] The thing is to allow ourselves to let it go, to let them help their own country. Raise up and grow.

[1:23:55] Well again, if everybody'd just do what they can. All right, the pioneers from what I see, they have more cars than the local people because they've got more money. They just happened to own the cars and the other people don't. The kind of Haitians we have in the Faith now, most of them haven't got cars. All right, that's already a way that the pioneers are able to serve the Haitians. Technical knowledge in making these programs. That's simple. You've got the know how, sufficiently amongst yourselves, to do it. If you've got any Haitians that have a better know-how rope them in too. It doesn't matter. Do it. [Inaudible]. And I think one of the things that we Baháʼís should remember is that so often we're on the inside looking out. And you know I'm getting awfully tired of my fellow Baháʼís in the sense that we are beginning talk a regular jargon. You go to a Baháʼí meeting and you listen to us. "Well, the ITC said this. Well, the NSA said that. But the LTS said something else. The ABC said something else." I'm went home to Haifa one year, and I am great friends with many of the secretaries of the House of Justice that have been serving there for years, I'm very close to them and I see them very often. And they were chattering away and tossing these abbreviations around and I said, "Stop it! What are you talking about?" I said, "This is my home. I've lived here all these years and I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about." BINS was the Baháʼí newsletter or in the Finance Department was the FINS or something. It's a jargon. It's an inter-office jargon, you see. Well for heaven's sake, don't let's all us get it like that so that we get so involved in our funny little Baháʼí vocabulary that we don't realize that people out there neither know nor care what we're talking about if we're going to present it like that. And often we want to present what appeals to us because we're inside, to those people who were outside, to whom it would have no appeal whatsoever. So this is really, if you think about it, this is marketing isn't it? The science of marketing. You see what the customer wants and you give him that. You don't give him what the boss wants to sell. Not if you're honest anyway. You try and give him something that he wants, and that's of use to him.

[Man speaking] The Japanese say...

What did the Japanese say?

[Man speaking] The Japanese say you always sell in the customer's language and always buy in your own.

That's intelligent.

[1:26:41] [Woman speaking] I have a question Rúhíyyih Khánum. From your own experience in other countries, the kind of radio programs that are most like the mass production that you can have everywhere in the country, would they be let's say, once a week, let's say half hour program, 20-minute program or let's say everyday tidbits? Or what kind of timing is most effective into, let's say, a country like this one here?

[1:27:11] You see again [?] you're thinking on a grand scale. You are now, what you just said if you analyzing it, you're thinking about Haiti in relationship to the Baháʼí programs all over the planet in other countries and what scale would be the best thing to embark on here. So immediately you're well off in theory, I'm suggesting that you just get 15 minutes a week or three times a week, 15 minutes or five or seven times a week a few minutes. Find out how much it costs. Experiment with it but then you've got to have enough of a backlog so you don't pull it off the radio, you see, because then you lose space. And that's very bad for the Baháʼí Faith. So you try it. You try it in Cap if you think Cap is the place to try it. I think Cap, my personal opinion is I wouldn't try it in this area at all. It's too sophisticated. This is the capital. They speak a lot more French here. The appeal would have to be very, very much different in this area, anything that was broadcast from here than either in Jacmel, Les Cayes, or in Cap, you see. So you take a place where it's easy, like Cap. I say that because when I saw this English woman - was she English? No? She's half Haitian. Anyway, there was a woman there that has a couple of little [bings?] like this and she's got a full time living out of this radio station. And the other was even worse and if you saw the ones in Gonaïves in Saint Marc you'd faint. Absolutely faint! I have never seen anything like it. It was like the back of the bar sort of thing. Well, they're broadcasting all day long and people are advertising and people are turning it on and listening, you see.

[1:29:06] Start something that is feasible. Very modestly as I said, very low profile but that you won't have to stop, that you can follow through on it. I would not go near it, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole unless I had an idea in my mind of how, what length of time I was going to do weekly. And then I had the tapes to back it up for at least six months and saw how it went, and then you'd be enough ahead of time, you see, so that you could go on feeding in. You could do the next six months while you were using up that six months that you had on tape. And seeing how it went, why, then you could be all the time feeding in for the next six months but you mustn't go off the air, you see. That's the secret. You've got to do it in a way that you know that you're not going to have to pull out. Now, they're going to be the ones that broadcasted, you don't have to do anything. All you have to do is to pay for the contract. The station does the work, but you've got to have your 15 minutes ready to hand them every single week. Here's your 15 minutes of the Baháʼí program.

[1:30:26] [Woman speaking] Here in Port-au-Prince, they have, on the Christian program they have music all day. And at a certain time of the day they have something to think about. They have the announcer saying that so-and-so us going to speak about something to think about. And then this man comes on and he talks about divorce or he talks about some Christian teaching. And he talks about maybe three, five sometimes ten minutes. Then he ends about, "And here's something to think about." And he goes off the air. And sometimes I'll look forward listening to it because he has some very interesting points you know...

[1:30:59] Well all right. Do the same thing, only don't try and swing something that's a four or five hour program, you see. Buy the time and do it modestly. Always we Baháʼís think in grandiloquent terms and while we up getting up steam to do a colossal enterprise, time is passing. We're doing absolutely nothing.

[1:31:26] [Stuart speaking] I felt recently that on my own particular team that when we go out and teach in the villages, that we haven't been spending enough effort in, we haven't been spending enough effort in using the word of Bahá’u’lláh itself in Creole. It's very easy to go in a village, you know and sit down and have a meeting. And you immediately start talking and explaining the teaching but constantly the people never really hear the actual word of Bahá’u’lláh.

[1:31:57] Well you can read it, can't you? Instead of that, you can have a couple of prayers and a little excerpt at the beginning of the meetings?

[1:32:04] [Stuart speaking] Okay but what I'm asking is, supposing we individually wanted to translate from French or from English into Creole, does this translation have to be approved by the NSA every time or can it be used on a teaching trip without having to go through this procedure?

[1:32:20] Stuart, I can't answer that question. The person who can answer that is the National Assembly because that's why we have a National Assembly. But I do think that sometimes we get it always on the theoretical scale. The National Assembly doesn't probably meet all that often or all that effectually. So you go and your present for nine people or seven or however many are present to hash out a half-baked idea which is not going to be handled by that NSA perhaps three or four sessions and then another half year is gone. But if you came to them with a sample, you see, and say, "Look. We've been thinking about this. And we suggest that we do something like this. And this is the kind of thing it would be and would you approve of it, do you want to make a committee now to just work on this particular thing and get it done", you see. If they need the money for the tapes and things, well that's fine. The money will be forthcoming. I will pay that from the funds I have at my disposal in the Holy Land. You don't have to ask the NSA. You don't have to ask the House of Justice. I have some money that I can help with this kind of thing if it isn't too heavy an expenditure and I'd love to do it.

[1:33:38] [Woman speaking] We are getting some money from the Counselor, Rúhíyyih Khánum.

[1:33:41] Well whatever it is and I'm going [?] some money that's holding you up. The thing that's holding you up is theory.

[Audio skips].

[1:33:58] [?Name], tell them when their might be the radio interview on the news.

[1:34:04] [[?] speaking] Yes, we had an interview at Radio Nacional today. And if everything goes according to what has been promised me... [?name] is the one that promised the interview and managed to have the interview going on. But it's one man for Michel who interviewed Rúhíyyih Khánum. So if [?] keeps to his word we're gonna have Rúhíyyih Khánum [?] twice. Once tomorrow, in the, what do you call it, the magazine [?] or something of that sort, the magazine. It goes between 1:00 and 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon. And, what the boy said was, it was going to go in the news Monday morning between 6:30 and 7:00 9'clock in the morning. So I think both times are prime time, people do listen to the radio at that time, you know.

[1:34:53] Not I. [Laughter].

[1:34:56] [[?] speaking] Well you know what you said, we'll see what they hear what [?].

[1:35:00] [Woman speaking] Can I also talk about the television interview?

[1:35:03] Why not? It hasn't happened but go ahead and talk about it.

[1:35:07] [[?] speaking] It hasn't happened yet. Well [name?] broke through. He [?], has managed with [?name] to have an interview with Rúhíyyih Khánum on a program called [?]. I've never seen it. Apparently, it's a new program, a 35-minute program. And the whole program they're going to do will be Rúhíyyih Khánum. And they will interview her on who she is, what she represents, what is the Faith, why she came to Haiti, what has she accomplished in Haiti, and what she thinks of Haiti. And it will be her talk and slides of her trip in Haiti, slides of the Holy Land, and they might even ask her statistical information like how many Baháʼís are in the country and where do they live and things like that. Yes?

[1:35:55] [Man speaking] I have mediocre to good pictures of all the Temples.

[1:36:00] [[?] speaking] We'll take them sure. Slides? We also... well and good pictures we had them in the teaching book, because they can blow that tool very well. [overlapping] snapshots.

[1:36:09] That would be very good if they'll do it. Those temples, if they do it, it's excellent.

[1:36:14] [[?] speaking] They did it once with the radio - no, television [?]. They put it on the board last year and they had beautiful shots with it.

[1:36:21] Yeah, that's true. Anyway I had one other thought that I wanted to share with the pioneers because, well I just think it would be illuminating for you. I think you ought to know it. One day I said Shoghi Effendi, he was talking about some situation, I forget what the details were. And I looked at him, I said, "Shoghi Effendi, you are so suspicious." Because he'd been, you know, bristling with suspicion. And I said, "But Shoghi Effendi, you're so suspicious." He said, "I suspicious. You should have known ‘Abdu’l-Bahá." He said, "He was much more suspicious than I am." Now, this was an absolute revelation to me. We always think of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá kissing the babies and walking around and showering love on everybody and being so patient, and so forbearing. And always we Baháʼís should look on the good and never on the bad and so on, and mention the good and not the evil. And we know our own teachings, you see. So this was a tremendous surprise to me, revelation to me. And then I understood from the Guardian that you couldn't possibly protect the Faith unless you were suspicious. You see, suspicion puts you on your guard. If you don't visualize that something can happen, how can you protect yourself? All right, she has a little baby, she sees the baby go near the stove. If she isn't suspicious that, "Where is that child, my God?" She turns around. The child was there a minute ago. Lord it may be going towards the stove, you see. If she can't visualize the danger, how can she protect the child, you see? If we can't visualize the danger to the Cause of God, how can we protect the Cause of God? Why do we have protection members of the board? To protect the Baháʼís, to protect the Faith, to protect the Cause of God from enemies - it doesn't have to be Covenant-breakers - from any attack, from any entity. We should be vigilant, you see.

[1:38:34] Now I often think that my experience with the Baháʼís is that they are such dear people, with so much love and devotion that they think that first of all, God's going to do everything. And that it's always a will of God. I don't know why. Any kind of a mess, "It must have been, Bahá’u’lláh wanted it that way." [Laughter]. I don't know why we should, you know. I don't know why when I make a mess I should say Bahá’u’lláh wanted it that way, you see. But I do! And then the same thing is true about suspicion. If we don't visualize the possibility of attack, if we don't visualize the possibility of being exploited, of being victimized, of being made a fool of, you see, then how can we protect the Cause and how can we protect ourselves? And the Baháʼí are far too trusting. It doesn't mean you don't love your fellow men to open your eyes and see what they're like and not let them get away with it. They're two entirely different subjects, you see. And I see this because I travel so much. I can't tell you the extraordinary naïveté of the Baháʼís. They don't seem to realize that this world is a bad place and that just being a Baháʼí isn't going to necessarily protect you. You have to use your own intelligence. I mean, after all the words of the Bible are very true. "God helps those who help themselves."

[1:40:10] Another thing that I learned after, you know, having a privilege of living with Shoghi Effendi was that he didn't let people get away with anything. And often the Baháʼís seemed to think that they would, for instance, never exploit another person. They know that they're honest and they will conduct themselves in an honest way. I don't mean about changing money or anything. I mean true honesty. They will be honest with other people, you see. Honest in their dealings and in their feelings. But, they never seem to realize they have any responsibility about seeing that other people are honest, too. It's very, very subtle point, you know. I have seen Baháʼís, they are so virtuous, you see, but somebody can cheat them. And because they didn't cheat, you see, they think that's all right because, "I'm virtuous. I didn't cheat anybody, but by God, I let that person cheat me." Remember the words of the Báb in Máh-Kú when His secretary went out and bought the honey and He said, "You paid too much, take it back. You were cheated." Manifestation of God. Then when he paid the man the full price of the carpet because he should have sold it at that price but he didn't. So he didn't make his customer suffer, and he put on himself the extra money that he should have sold it for and neglected to do so, evidently not coming to the right decision at the right time. And he wasn't going to let his of customer suffer, you see. Scrupulous honesty, but he wasn't going to allow anybody to impose on him because that is making the other person's character bad. And I often think that the Baháʼís don't realize that in their travels around the world many, many times, they do people a great injustice because they think... it's all in my manual for pioneers incidentally, there's a chapter on it. They think that by being exceedingly kind and loving to other people, which may involve that the other person is really exploiting your loving kindness all the time [?] mad, that they are being wonderful Baháʼís. They are showing forth the spirit of the Faith to other people, whereas they may be ruining that person's character. Because they are encouraging that person to get away with murder. And I am conniving at it by being too blind, too lenient, too excusing and so on. That's not the way to do it. But, I was talking about that and then I said that I wanted to remember to say that to Baháʼís because I don't think that any of us coming from our background in this part of the Western world would dream that suspicion could be a good characteristic for a Baháʼí to have, you see.

[1:43:18] [Man speaking] Rúhíyyih Khánum one of the problems that we have with this subject is the prohibition against backbiting in the Cause. And when we have a suspicion and we feel that maybe we should share it with someone who might be being taken advantage of or something. I we feel well, that's backbiting about this other person that you think may be causing a problem.

[1:43:40] Well, I think that a great deal has to do with motive and I think also that there's a lot of idle gossip. I think that if I set out to defame somebody else on hearsay and I'm not sure of my facts, I think this is criminal. This is what Bahá’u’lláh says that if you kill a person with a sword, he's dead. But if you're killing with your tongue, you kill him for 100 years because you kill his reputation, you see. And the only subject that Bahá’u’lláh mentions and says accursed is backbiting in the Hidden Words. It's very strange. He uses the adjective accursed, which is a curse, you see. When you say a thing is accursed, it's as strong as you can get. And the only thing that I've seen anywhere in the Writings, except accursing some of the enemies of the Faith, is backbiting. It's a terrible, terrible thing. But to have enough sense to keep your eyes open, be a little suspicious, if the Baháʼís had been a little bit more alert and suspicious, they wouldn't have had the history of the terrible scandal on the National Spiritual Assembly, which had even reached the ears of the government. Well, that's a big help. Why shouldn't they have their eyes and ears wide open to protect the Faith? But that doesn't mean that I have any right without the slightest proof to say that [?name] is dishonest. Violette is dishonest, you see. "She stole something from me." My goodness, that's a terrible thing. But I must be vigilant, because if I don't, if I'm not why then I'm just silly.

[1:45:26] [Man speaking] I'd like to press that on a little bit because it's very interesting to me. If you know, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt that a certain person has a problem, let's say it's dishonesty, and you know it through personal experience. Obviously it is not your place to take out an ad in the paper and tell the whole world that this person is dishonest. However, if you're going to have business dealings on the other side of the coin, obviously you're going to be suspicious. But it's that gray area in between when a friend of yours or someone else asks you what do you think of so and so because I'm intending to entrust him with a $1,000.

[1:46:05] If I didn't think they were honest, I'd say, "I advise you not to." But I would be quite sure that it wasn't out of any personal animosity that I made that statement, you see. Supposing that I say something like that about another person because I think they've insulted me or offended me or I don't like them or I wanted, you know, have a dig at them, I think that's criminal. Then I'm going to be punished by God. But if I sincerely believe that that person is not honest, I have reason to believe, and you come and you say, "Rúhíyyih Khánum do you think that I should lend this fellow £1,000?" Well, I'd say, "I'd be very, very careful. I'd be darn sure that they're honest before I dream of lending them £1,000." You see?

[1:46:55] [Man speaking] Just a small, to one side of that little bit, what if the subject of that person came up between us but we weren't talking about business, would you mention his character at that point?

Well, in what sense?

[1:47:09] [Man speaking] Well you see if, for instance, the subject of $1,000 came up, you would be sure to say, "I would be very careful with that person." Okay. But if the subject of $1,000 didn't not come up, in other words we were just talking about this man because we were talking about his job or something else.

[Woman speaking] And would you volunteer the information?

[Man speaking] Yes, you see that's a very gray point there.

[1:47:30] Yes but if I sincerely believe that the other person was not honest, I would volunteer the information. Why wouldn't I? But I would try to be very, very sure of my facts, or alternatively very sure of the person that I was talking to because I'm sorry to say lots of people are fools, you don't dare say anything to them because they're not going to understand. Whatever you say is going to be misquoted, misunderstood, misinterpreted and so on. But if you're dealing with a person that is a little bit sensible and trustworthy themselves, you say, "Look, I may be wrong. But you asked me a question and I really suspect that that person may not be strictly honest." But then I think you have to really be quite sure that you think that person is not honest.

[1:48:19] I'm a person - I'll give you an example. I have a hereditary characteristic. The moment my mother lost anything in the whole world she thought it had been stolen. [Laughter]. Really! To the most extraordinary degree. I can remember once, it's a very cute thing. My mother was very small. My father was very tall. And my mother came and looked at my father very indignantly and said, Sutherland, have you seen my corset? As much to say, what did you do? And he said, never wear them, my dear. [Laughter]. But to such a degree, my mother always thought the moment she lost anything it had been stolen. I'm like that too. Violette travels with me and lives with me, my God, if I lay that handkerchief down and before I go to bed I can't find it, I think it's been stolen. I don't think you stole it or you stole it or you, but I think it's been stolen. I couldn't possibly have dropped it on the floor, you see? But that doesn't mean that I allow this to run away with me and I run around telling people that, Oh I think that's been stolen and I don't know, the only person that was around was Mary Jane and maybe maybe maybe, I wouldn't dream of doing it. I'd consider that criminal. But that's the way my mind would go, you see? But then of course she goes and finds it and the [?]blues all over.

[1:49:48] [Violette] Now I try to protect myself. [Laughter].

[1:49:55] That, you take that back! If anybody [inaudible & more laughter]. That's [?] and backbiting! [More laughter]. You know very well...

[1:50:17] [Violette] That was a joke!

[1:50:20] In twenty years I never suspected you took more than a pen. [Laughter]. You see how much inharmony there is amongst [?].

[1:50:36] No, I think everything requires a lot of common sense. But I don't believe that being exploited is an advantage. You know, we, Violette and I like marketing and we go to bazaars in all kinds of countries. And in spite of the fact that I have learned to bargain, that I have Scottish blood and that I will not quit easily on the price of things, she always tells me: now look you just indicate you want it and then go away and leave it to me, because she will be able to bargain so much better than I, I'm still fundamentally a naïve North American, you see, and I will in the end be fleeced. But not this one. And I admire her for that. I don't think that to be cheated is something that I should be proud of. Now If I cheat somebody else, I certainly shouldn't be proud of that, that's all wrong too. But to be cheated is not something you should be proud of.

[1:51:44] Shoghi Effendi used to bargain. You know all these things he bought for the Shrines and the archives. And he bought them from very, very famous firms. The things, the garden ornaments were bought from very, very internationally known firm. And he'd say I can't pay that much, and he'd bargain with the man whose selling it to him and almost invariably brought the price down. And then, I remember things that Shoghi Effendi wanted, something that was very unique, a very beautiful marble basin that would have looked wonderful in the gardens. And I begged him to buy it, he said no, it's too expensive. And the man that was selling it, he said, you know Mr. Rabbani, I'd be glad to bring down the price, but I paid an awful lot for it, and I really can't make it any cheaper than that, even for you. And then Shoghi Effendi wouldn't buy it. And I said, Shoghi Effendi, you have the money. You can buy it, I mean the money of the Faith for Bahjí here or Mount Carmel. He said, no, it's too much. His conscience would not allow him to spend money on that because he sincerely believed that was too much. That was going to far, you see.

[1:53:03] [Man speaking] I'm very glad to hear that. Canadian's have a reputation apparently abroad for being too cheap. That they bargain for things and don't like to pay too much for hotel rooms and don't leave too large tips, that sort of thing. I wasn't aware of that before I came here. There are some hotel [discussion about this].

[1:53:28] Well are you saying that we're shrewder than the Americans and don't intend to be fleeced as easily?

[1:53:33] [Man speaking] Well I wasn't putting any connotation on that, I'm just glad to hear that Shoghi Effendi was not afraid to bargain. I have been chastised for bargaining in certain circles. You know where it's not a nice thing to do, to bargain. Such as [inaudible].

[1:53:45] Oh my dear. Baháʼís come to work at the World Centre and Violette and I and other Baháʼís living there will say, well we of course bargained, or I bargained for it and this Baháʼí will draw themselves up with the greatest amount of sanctimonious and say "I couldn't possibly bargain for anything" you know as though to say it was a dirty word. But they're the ones that are wrong. Not us that are doing the bargaining, they're the ones that are being fleeced and then laughed at. And if you allow people to cheat you as a Baháʼí, then they'll be glad to have cheated you and they'll despise you. But if you show that you're fair and honest, but you're not going to give in and be cheated, they'll respect you. They may be sore that they couldn't get it out of you, but they'll respect you. And I think that's something that the Bahá’ís want, is to be respected.

[1:54:49] [Woman speaking] Inaudible question.

[1:54:52] Oh, yes, that is a story that I heard from Ḥasan Balyúzí and his father was present. You know Harrods, the very, very famous shop in London and still world famous shop. And the Master went there with a party, a retinue, I don't know how many people accompanying Him and one of them was the father of Ḥasan Balyúzí. And the Master saw something He liked and He inquired the price and He said it was too much. He wouldn't pay it, and they should reduce the price. And of course you could imagine Harrods, anybody saying that they should reduce the price. Well, they were horrified, and the Master didn't bite and He left. And He got down as far as the front door, and the manager or the floor walker or whoever was the head of that department came running after Him said, sir, we are agreeable to accepting your price. And he saw this himself, he was present you see.

[1:55:59] And then you know the story, it's in The Priceless Pearl, Shoghi Effendi told me and I repeated it in The Priceless Pearl because he was present. He was about 12 years old in Alexandria and he went, was taking a Pasha home for lunch and the cab driver, you see, when they reached the house in the suburbs of Alexandria where he had rented a villa and was staying and this gentleman was there, and the Guardian, 12 year old Guardian, and the Guardian was small anyway, so when he was twelve he was even smaller. And this great big [?] you know, with this roughness which seems to be a characteristic of coachman all over the world. Asked ‘Abdu’l-Bahá for certain sum of money, He said it was too much, He wouldn't pay him that, that that was not what He owed him. And then the man began to argue with him and Shoghi Effendi said that He was so embarrassed he didn't know what do, and the man put his hand in the [cover?] of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and began to push him back and forth like this. And he said the Master to paid no attention. Said I'm not going to pay you, that's not right and I won't pay you. And when he found of course that he couldn't win, well then he let go of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. He paid him exactly what he owed him. He said I was going to give you a good tip, but now you've completely forfeited it. And He walked off, with his Pasha and with his grandson.

[1:57:39] [Woman speaking] Even with a simple thing as buying from the merchants, vegetables, they tried to get 14 cents at a banana, and my challenge of the day is to get them for what I know Haitians could buy them for, because I know that's a good price. And so I would just really stick with them and I was told one time that I shouldn't do that because they are poor and they are hungry and I said well, I know I'm hungry too but I'm not going to pay 14 cents for one [grain?] banana when I know I can get it for 7 cents.

[1:58:16] [Another speaking] Or 3 in Jacmel.

[1:58:20] [Stuart speaking] But doesn't that work two ways? We suppose that we can pay the same price as the Haitians, but then when it comes to paying the wages of the expatriates and the wages of the Haitians, the Haitians gets at least half of what the expatriate gets. That's regarded as being normal. But it doesn't seem to me to be fair or just, that we should expect to always pay the same price as the Haitians for everything.

[1:58:50] What? I'm not with you, what do you mean?

[1:58:52] [Stuart] Any job in this country where you have a choice between an expatriate...

[1:58:56] What do you mean, a white man?

[1:58:59] [Stuart] Somebody foreign, from France or Canada or the United States, ok? They automatically get at least twice as much as a Haitian gets.

[1:59:07] If not fifty times more.

[1:59:10] [Stuart] Yeah. It's just regarded as being normal.

[1:59:13] Well, what about it?

[1:59:14] [Stuart] Well they both may be of equal qualifications.

[1:59:18] And what are you going to do about it?

[1:59:19] [Stuart] Okay. Well, is it just then that the [?] should pay the same price as a Haitian in the market?

[1:59:27] Of course. One subject has nothing to do with the other. I mean that to me, excuse me Stuart, I call that muddled thinking. I don't see what one has to do with the other, then you'd better take about 80% of your wages, which are much more than the average Haitian villager for instance is getting and turn it over to charity here in this country you see.

[1:59:46] [Stuart] No I'm not talking about villagers, I'm talking about somebody ...

[1:59:49] Alright, in the town, in the town. I cannot see why, if the price of carrots is one gourde a kilo, because somebody is getting a wage that is half of what the white man is getting, I should pay five gourdes for a kilo in order to compensate for that at the job. To me the two subjects are entirely separate because I am being cheated if I don't pay the going price.

[2:00:15] [Stuart] I agree with that.

[2:00:16] But I can't do anything about the social injustices in the world which you know exist in every country in the world, including here.

[2:00:26] [Stuart] But you do agree that that is a social injustice.

[2:00:28] Of course it is. It's a criminal injustice. But why did Bahá’u’lláh appear? Because the whole world is stinking with injustice. Shoghi Effendi said, why does He call them the Houses of Justice? Not the houses of mercy? He used to tell the Bahá’ís this. He said, if Bahá’u’lláh had wanted to call these the houses of mercy, he would of, but he didn't want to because that's not what they are. They are the Houses of Justice.

[2:00:59] [Woman speaking] And what is justice?

[2:01:03] Well justice after all... first you have laws, then you obey the laws, they are laid down, you follow them, you see that they are applied equitably to the poor and the rich in life, no matter who the person standing at the bar is, he gets exactly the same kind of justice and the same kind of treatment, I mean it's not such a mystery what justice is.

[2:01:27] [Stuart] Umm, I've been up the country, [Deb?] and I have been several times with one of our associates who is an upper class Haitian gentleman who happens to love the people of Haiti, and I watch how he handles things like that. When he bargains for a coconut or something on the side of the road, some vegetables which he loves to buy in the country and take home to his family, he always bargains down to the last cent, and gets them at the going rate, and then gives an extra dollar afterwards if he wants to. And I'd asked him about that and he said well that's just because I feel these people need it and yet I don't want to be cheated. So that's how he overcomes that problem. Because that way he still has their respect, and yet he has been able to give them more than the rock bottom price.

[2:02:15] Well, that's him. That's his personal opinion and that's the way he wants to handle it. And I don't consider that I either have to do it that way or don't have to do it that way, that he is right and I am wrong, you see?

[2:02:29] [Man speaking] Just a suggestion for Stuart's comment that if you feel you are overpaid, and if you do feel there's a connection between your pay and what you should pay for things, that's not a bad way of getting around it. And with him we had a long discussion about it. And I simply was trying to save your guilt.

[2:02:43] Yes, but remember that the Haitian man knew how much he should pay. He knew that it was 14 centimes for a carrot or something and therefore he said well alright they are poor, so I'll buy this that and the other at the going rate and then I'll give them a tip. [?] a [?]. That's his business, you see. But we'll never be able to do that, because in a thousand years we will never pay what a Haitian does because we're white.

[2:03:11] [Man speaking] Umm, I'll disagree with you...

[2:03:13] [Deb speaking] Works in reverse sometimes.

[2:03:14] [Man speaking] Yeah.

[2:03:15] [Deb] There was a woman selling little plastic pearls on a string, on a thread and I walked up and said how much and she said three for a dollar, and I said well I'd like one and I'll give you a gourde, so she gave it to me. So I came home, I brought it in the house and I said [Mini?] how much should I have paid for this? Thinking she'd say four cents. And she said, "Oh, anywhere from one to three dollars." And I said "Oh really?" She said "Oh yes, a Haitian would pay anywhere from one to three dollars for that." And I said "But it's plastic." And she said, "It doesn't matter, that's what a Haitian would pay." So I said "Well, great. If I can get them so much more cheaply then you can I'll get you one." So I went down again the next day and I went up to... It was a man selling them this time and I said "Yesterday I bought one of these for a gourde, today I'd like two and I'll pay you two gourdes." And he started [?] this long spiel about what I was going to pay for it, and I said I'm sorry a gourde each or nothing. So he said "Oh all right, all right" so he gave me two more and I gave him the two gourdes and I went straight to the office to work and the lab technician is a well educated, very nice Haitian woman and I went in and I said, "Lisa, how much should I have paid for this?" And she said, "Anywhere from one to three dollars". [Laughter]. And I said, "That's terrific, because I got it for a gourde."

[2:04:26] You should start a business Deb.

[Some related conversation about purchases and laughter].

[2:04:53] [Woman speaking] But there is something else in our favor, let's say when we buy something from the market... Let's say when a Haitian goes out and buys carrots, they usually don't buy much carrots, they only buy tomatoes, they will end up buying two or three tomatoes. Okay. When we buy tomatoes we buy the basketful. So by itself we are helping them a lot. Buying it at the going rates you're not being cheated, on the other hand, you're buying so much more than the regular Haitian is buying so they're making a better bargain and they're not carrying so much weight on their heads. You're buying two three melons for instance or five dozens of oranges. Not many Haitians unless they're upper class would go... They go buy one orange or half an orange. So we're really doing them a favor that way.

[2:05:33] [Man speaking] Sometimes even the merchants will throw in a couple of orange extras at the end.

[2:05:37] [Woman speaking] Yes, yes.

[2:05:40] [Another speaker] Well, even if we bargain in the market I think likely it's expensive enough. I mean just the rents $350. And then the electricity and everything else, so generally they get us any way, so we can fight for the rest you know, otherwise we have no where to live in this country, it's already so expensive.

[2:06:00] [Woman speaking] You know there is something else we shouldn't forget. Here you can bargain and at the end of the day the fruit seller, the vegetable seller because he's come down he sells everything he has. Now you go in Canada or United States or come to Haifa, you go to the vegetable shop, his potatoes are you know $1/kg and he's not coming a cent, and at the end of the day and at the end of the week tons of these things are thrown away because they cannot sell it. Who is paying for it? We are paying because they've already brought the price so high to cover themselves. So in the long run, it's the buyer who is cheated and pays for everything. So I think the Haitian is much more intelligent. He is ready to come down and sell his merchandise rather than... and ask for more price and throw half of it away.

[Some discussion about the best time to shop].

[2:07:05] Well you see I think, for instance mendicancy is forbidden in the Bahá’í Faith. Bahá’u’lláh has forbidden begging. It's forbidden. Well, I went down in the car with Greg and then we'd walk around the town and come back after, it was when Greg was coming up the hill, all the time these people were bothering the life out of me. Kado, Kado, kado and hanging a basket on the end of my nose and trying to push some beads down my neck and so on you see, just like that. So I found something to say. I said [Phrase in French]. The moment I said that even the next day when I walk down the same street, they didn't bother me anymore. So what were they doing? They were exploiting the tourist. I don't blame them. I'm not blaming them for anything, you see. But I'm just saying that there was really no reason why I should be exploited like a tourist or bothered like a tourist. That's between them and their economic situation in the human race and the stupidity of the American tourist, you see, the whole thing together.

[2:08:25] [Woman speaking] Ruhiyyih Khanum would you speak to us a little bit about the responsibility we have to our parents? The other day in Cap you were saying something to the effect of if our parents weren't happy with us that God wasn't happy with us either.

[2:08:38] Well I didn't say that, Bahá’u’lláh did. You quote him [name?], do you remember the words of Bahá’u’lláh?

[Unintelligible from someone in the audience]

[2:08:46] [Woman continues] It wasn't that. In the connection that Ruhiyyih Khanum was speaking about the fact that how much we emphasize our responsibility towards our children, what we should do for our children. It's all the time, what we can do for the children and we don't remember that there is a lot more in the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, our responsibility towards our parents, really. And it is towards the parents that Bahá’u’lláh says, in His own words He said that if you want to achieve the good pleasure of God, you should achieve the good pleasure of your parents. In another place He said if your parents are well satisfied with you, I am satisfied with you. Or the fact that you've become a Bahá’í and you cause the soul of your parents to draw nearer to Bahá’u’lláh. It is the importance of what we can do for our parents is really tremendous and we very little it is spoken of, what the duty we have towards them, the debt we owe them, wasn't that?

[2:10:20] Yes, and also if you think about what it says in the Bahá’í teachings. It doesn't talk about your duty to your children except to bring them up in the cause of God. Fundamentally it is what the duty of the Bahá’ís to children is, to bring them up in the Cause of God. The purpose of education itself is that they should recognize God and accept the teachings of God. The purpose of education, you read what it says about education in the Bahá’í Faith and then it ends up in just being this, that education is to make you recognize God and draw closer to God, you see. So the emphasis is on disciplining the child, bringing the child up properly, teaching the child his prayers, teaching the child to be God fearing, teaching the child to be a good Bahá’í. But, it's not the emphasis of the duty of the parents to the children, the duty is of the child to the parents. Turned around the opposite direction in the teachings.

[2:11:25] [Man speaking] This is an interesting point and it came up because, like for example my parents live in England and it's extremely difficult for me to visit them. So really I've almost abandoned my parents, they pretty well have to fend for themselves. And in many cases as pioneers we are actually doing things which are against the wishes of our parents. You know very often our parents reminds us frequently in letters that, you know that now you've lived over there for three or four years, isn't it about time you went back to civilization and put your kids into good schools and generally start to live a normal life again? You know. But for me, being a Baháʼí, I feel my first responsibility is towards the Faith, not towards my parents.

[2:12:15] I think that's perfectly clear in the teachings because ultimately, there's a polarity. God and my soul, and nobody and nothing can really do anything about it because that's the whole thing. He created me and I have a soul, and my soul must turn to Him and He has His own particular relationship to me and that, as you say, is paramount. But that doesn't... I can't sacrifice that for my parents. If they say I can't marry, I will obey them, you see. I will treat them with respect. I will be loving. I will be kind. I will pray for them. I will do good deeds in their name. But sacrifice my service to Bahá’u’lláh and my relationship to Him, I can't for anybody in the world. That's what we die for don't we? This is why they're being martyred.

[2:13:18] [John speaking] Is there not an exception to that? Did not ‘Abdu’l-Bahá say that if one member, this is of a husband and wife, if one is not a Bahá’í and objects very strenuously to active service in the Faith, that you should cease the active of service? Not cease being a Bahá’í, of course but cease the act of service?

[2:13:36] Well you'd have to show me the quotation John. I'd have to see it in writing, I don't recollect that anywhere in the teachings. I'd have to see it in print.

[2:13:45] [Woman speaking] Somebody just told us that there was a compilation out from the Universal House that said something [inaudible]...

[2:13:53] Well, I'd still have to see the sentence, you see. I'd have to see the context and I'd have to see the sentence. But I do know that we have a great many letters from Shoghi Effendi. People would write, you see, that the wife, the husband or the parents, whoever it was wasn't a Baháʼí. And he said that they should win them over with great kindness and that they should show such love to the non-Baháʼí that they would say that since my wife, my husband, my child, whatever it is became a Baháʼí, they are much better and kinder to me than they ever were before, you see. This is a demonstration of being a Baháʼí. But I think Stuart for instance, you could write to your parents. You can do things in your own service to the Cause, what is to prevent you when you go on a teaching trip or something to say look Bahá’u’lláh, I wish to heaven you'd accept this as if my parents had done it, accept it in their name, don't put it to my credit, put it to their credit, you see. What is the harm in doing? I think this is permissible in the Faith. But to go home to England and take care of your old parents just because they are son-sick and would like to have you back, I don't think that that is called for. I don't think that that would be necessarily the right thing to do. Unless, of course, there was some terrible emergency and one of your parents desperately needed you and had no one else.

[2:15:24] We've had one of the secretaries of the House of Justice, Florence Avis, who had been a very wonderful secretary of the House and very valuable. And she's had to return with the greatest of reluctance to the United States because she has a very old mother who hasn't anyone else in the world and has reached the point where she has to have care and her daughter has gone home. We had the same thing with another very devoted Baháʼí in Haifa. And her mother became senile in Switzerland and there wasn't any other way out except for her to go back and take care of that mother, all right? They did it, you see. But then that doesn't usually come to that point. It comes to the point that the parent wants their child to come home or said well what are you doing? Haven't you been over there long enough? You see. Come on back.

[2:16:16] [Woman speaking] You just mentioned right now Ruhiyyih Khanum, you are doing an action, a good action in their name. I'd like to know somehow how it works. Like it's a... if I go teach in the village let's say, "Listen, God don't take it if I'm doing it", and say "put the recompense on my mother" for instance.

[2:16:37] Why not?

[2:16:37] [Woman continues] Even if my mother let's say could be against... [Audio cuts out].

[2:16:40] ... left it in her name, can't you?

[2:16:44] [Another speaker] I'd like to just share a story of my mother, my mother and father were strongly against the Faith when I became a Bahá’í and I started saying the prayer for parents, or what I call the prayer for parents that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, but I also kept note of everything that I consider that might be acceptable by God, any small act, whatever it was, and I always put it towards my mom and dad. My father now is in love with the Faith where he will [?] and my mother became a Bahá’í three years ago. And I strongly feel that it was because the leverage on my part, not that that was the only reason, but that assisted, that count, you know it works, it's really powerful in how it has an effect on their lives...

[2:17:35] But you see this is in the Writings, this is the whole point again and of the Writings. Greg, I don't think I can read this dim print without glasses, would you come and read this cable that I got yesterday from the House of Justice out loud, I wanted to share it with everybody tonight.

[2:17:58] [Greg speaking] CRUEL SYSTEMATIC OPPRESSION LONG-SUFFERING IRANIAN FRIENDS HAS REACHED NEW LEVEL INTENSITY. DWINDLING SOURCES THEIR LIVELIHOOD FURTHER SEVERELY CURTAILED. DISMISSAL FROM JOBS, CANCELLATION TRADE LICENSES, CONFISCATION PRIVATE PROPERTIES UNABATED. HOMELESS THOUSANDS THROWN ON MERCY RELATIVES FRIENDS. DOORS SCHOOLS CLOSED TO INCREASING NUMBER CHILDREN. FRESH BLOOD WANTONLY SPILLED AFTER LULL EXECUTIONS. WITH HEAVY HEARTS ANNOUNCE ḤABÍBU’LLÁH AWJÍ, ENTHUSIASTIC ACTIVE BELIEVER, HANGED SHIRAZ 16 NOVEMBER. RECENT EVIDENCE CONFIRMS MARTYRDOM SOME TIME AGO OF TWO STEADFAST UPHOLDERS CAUSE: YADU’LLÁH SIPIHRARFA‘ EXECUTED BY FIRING SQUAD TIHRAN, MANÚCHIHR VAFÁ’Í MURDERED IN HIS HOME TIHRAN BY UNKNOWN ASSAILANT WHO ATTACHED NOTE TO BODY GIVING AS REASON FOR DASTARDLY DEED INNOCENT VICTIM'S BAHÁ’Í BELIEF. . . .

[2:19:27] I don't know whether they've sent a copy of this to the National Assembly or not, but this was addressed to me. I don't really know what I can do... I don't know what any of us can do about it.

[2:19:46] [Multiple speakers] We can inform the media. We can have some prayers.

[2:19:48] Yes, of course, obviously but my point is that it is so terrible to be so completely impotent when things like this are happening. Do you know that there doesn't seem to be anything that we can do to change it. We can compensate for it in our services to Cause, but we don't seem to be able to stop it at all. Just terrible. I think it would be nice if we had some prayers here friends. [Asking someone to chant a prayer].

[2:20:40] [Prayers].

[2:33:56] You know, it only makes you realize more acutely what we were talking about that we should teach while there's time, it's the only compensation for their sufferings. It's the only salvation for the world. There's nothing else we can do. We can't do anything for them. They could die but at least we can teach. And Haiti is a very, very fertile field. I remember Ruth Pringle told me, she said there's I think one reason that I came here before and wanted so much to come to Haiti, and I see how right she was, she told me, she said you know, Ruhiyyih Khanum, they are not teaching in the villages in Haiti at all. And she said, they are wonderful people and very spiritual and have great receptivity, she said not the cities. She said they look at the cities and then they don't understand Haiti. But the people of Haiti are wonderful. And we should be teaching them, should be reaching them. She's absolutely right. You see the more you get, it's like milk, the more milk you have more cream you have. Inevitably, you'll get your leaders, whatever the percentage may be, 10%, half a percent, it's there you see. So that you bring in the friends and the cream will come to the top, then you'll have your leaders, you'll have your future teachers, your future administrators, your future staunch Baháʼís that will withstand the tests and onslaughts or whatever we all have to stand in the future.

[2:36:00] Well, I think everybody should go to bed because I know I'm very tired.