Transcript:Ruhiyyih Khanum/Talk with pioneers in Petionville 3 Nov 1982

Transcript of: Talk with pioneers in Petionville, Haiti 3 Nov 1981 by Ruhiyyih Khanum

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[0:00] I think it'd be nice if somebody introduced everybody by name to us. Come on, Julie you know who everybody is, introduce everybody. [Introduction of attendees]. I'm listening as much as I can. [Introduction continues] What are their last names? Dear I don't give a hoot what they're front names are. Freelander?

[Julie] No no not lander. Land. B-R-E-E-L-A-N-D. [Introduction continues with laughter].

[1:34] Where's [?]. She's probably coming as soon as she gets that child to bed. Anyway, I thought that it would be very nice to have an evening of questions. We don't have to of course, if it gets very dull well maybe we can think of something else to do. But it's almost two years, isn't it, since I was here? That's about 18 months ago. And I can remember what a happy evening the last evening here was. I didn't forget it. I enjoyed it very much and I thought it would be lovely as I had not been too tired from this week's visit. I was afraid I might be tireder than I was because we've been traveling steadily since the fourth of August. And an awful lot of places. What was it we figured out today? Forty-seven places we've been. More than that, much more than that. Anyway, we've been to an awful lot of countries and places and provinces and cities and villages, and I didn't know how I would feel when I came back. But I'm feeling all right. And that's why I suggested to [?] that the pioneers could come together tonight so I'd be able to see you all more than once because we're going to have another meeting before I go on. What date did we say? What date? The 20th, you see. And anyway the point is that I feel that lots of times pioneers have questions. They have ideas. They may have suggestions that would be benefit to each other. For that matter it might be a benefit to me. And that we could just have a nice informal time together.

[3:22] There was something I said I wanted to bring up tonight. What was it? I told [?] or you in the car, I said don't forget. This is something that we should bring up tonight. Now I can't think what it was.

[Woman speaking] We have to wait for [?].

[3:39] Everything hanging on [?] coming and telling us shows that we're a little tireder than we thought we were. I tell you, there's gonna be some tape with the Persian interpolations.

[Woman speaking] No it's not. It's closed.

[4:05] He's not closed. Not Greg, my dear. He's all ears and quietness. [Laughter]. Well, I have an idea to start the ball rolling. I was saying today that I think that people forget that the most practical person in the whole world, when Bahá’u’lláh was alive, was Bahá’u’lláh Himself. And I don't think the Baháʼís think of that. They think of Bahá’u’lláh as a Manifestation of God. And, you know, just like the sun shining in heaven and all of His marvelous qualities, He's so far beyond our comprehension in His characteristics as the reflection of Almighty God that it's almost impossible to conceive of what He's like, you see. But I don't think that we conceive of Him as having been the most practical man alive in His day. Because how could He give us a world order designed by Almighty God to bring the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and change the whole aspect of the planet if He weren't the most practical man in the world? But the Baháʼís, and I don't mean anybody here, but I mean very often I have found that the Baháʼís believe that spirituality in some mysterious way is linked to being impractical. They think if they are impractical that they're spiritual. They think as they say, "Bahá’u’lláh will do it." Why on earth should He? What are you doing? He wasn't impractical. Why are you impractical? The degree of practicality of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi is simply unbelievable. Shoghi Effendi was a brilliant executive, not only a brilliant planner. He was a brilliant, dynamic executive. He planned very carefully. He kept track of everything very carefully. He was so careful and exact and methodical that he had a habit. He had visiting cards. Little old-fashioned, very nice, English, simple hard card and his graved name. And with the exception of sending these with a book like God Passes By or one of his translations of the Writings like the Gleanings or the Prayers and Meditations to prominent people that he'd known like Sir Ronald Storrs or his old tutor in Oxford or some prominent person, these cards as far as I could see were never used it all, except to keep notes on.

[7:18] And he liked very much small things. He was small himself, you know. Bahá’u’lláh was much smaller than ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. And Shoghi Effendi very strongly resembled Bahá’u’lláh in his body. The Greatest Holy Leaf used to take his hands and look at them and say, "These are the hands of my father." And in his height and in the shape of his body, he had very strong resemblance to Bahá’u’lláh, not necessarily the face but the body. Anyway, the point is that Shoghi Effendi liked small things. He wrote all of his books on pieces of paper about that size, about what, three by five inches, a small lined pad. When I write, I get ahold of a huge fool's cap size paper and I just, you know, sprawl down it. And Shoghi Effendi wrote with his very methodical handwriting, very compactly on these small sheets. He wrote the whole of God Passes By on sheets of paper that size. And he not only wrote it once, longhand, having made notes for one year, I'm thinking about God Passes By, he read everything he had on the Baháʼí Faith in Haifa, which meant all the tablets, all the books and references, all the tablets that were copies of individual tablets from Persia that were sent and compiled by spiritual assemblies and had the signature, the seal of the local assembly on it that this was a true copy. And they sent all of these manuscript copies of tablets to the Guardian. Sometimes there were nothing of significance in them, they were letters of Bahá’u’lláh. Sometimes a very rare and extraordinary sentences is in them. But the point is that he read every single thing that he had in Haifa. For one year he made very copious notes and he sat down and he wrote this whole thing, God Passes By longhand. Then he rewrote it all longhand, from beginning to end. The same size paper, a clean copy relatively speaking. And as he rewrote it, he brushed it up and perfected it. Then having done that, he sat down on a tiny little portable typewriter about that big and proceeded to type the whole manuscript of God Passes By himself.

[9:55] When he was at full speed he could use four fingers. And he used to type that book, it was in wartime when he wrote it, he typed that sometimes 10 hours a day. I've never seen anything like it. The Guardian's capacity for work was unbelievable. And he had six copies, the original and five copies. His machine would take a light copy paper and we'd sit down at night in his bedroom, he had a very, very large table in the middle of the room, he'd give me three copies and he'd take three copies and we'd proofread it out loud. Accent under the Sh, or the part about the Báb with all those accents was terribly hard, because for instance there's Vahíd and Váhid. And the only way to tell the difference in English is the accent, it comes in a different place on the word you see. Well we do that 'til we're blind with fatigue. Then when he had that all carefully done, he'd mail these off batch after batch to Horace Holly in the United states to get ready for the publication of the book.

[11:08] Anyway, what I'm trying to say is this tremendous executive capacity of the Guardian was reflected in everything that he did, his thoroughness. And he kept in his pocket all kinds of notes on his visiting cards. And I can remember when we were away in the summer he would put all the dates, of you know, March - it wouldn't be March it would be June - June 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and so on, all down like that. And then he'd see if he got his London Times for that date which he read every day and he'd tick it off. He'd received a copy of the first of the month, the second of the month, the third of the month. He had the whole list. He didn't trust your little calendar, he had it all written out carefully there. As the paper came he scratched it all. And if he didn't get one of those copies he was really quite upset because he followed the political news of the world so exactly. He was a great reader of the political news and the advanced scientific news if you like. Supposing some professor gave his opinion about what he thought the nature of the atomic war would be, well that was a sort of thing that Shoghi Effendi would read with great interest, you see.

[12:35] He read what was going on in the world and what the brains of the world were thinking. I never saw him look at the Reader's Digest, Time or Newsweek in my whole life, meaning he's not interested. But he read The Times of London. He read The Jerusalem Post of Israel. And when we were in Europe, he read Journal de Genève, which, you know, the European papers had some of the finest editorials in Europe were in the Journal de Genève. And then he read the New York Herald Tribune every day when we were in Europe. He had the Jerusalem Post forwarded from Israel. In other words, what was going on in the world, he followed with intense interest. But this was typical of this executive capacity of Shoghi Effendi. His attention as I said to detail, his thoroughness, his carrying out plans, his foreseeing what would happen, making a plan, making an objective, following through to reach that objective. And so often I find that the Baháʼís seemed to think that first of all, Bahá’u’lláh is going to do everything, which of course in theory I suppose that He can, but whether He wants to without our doing anything is another question. And they seem to think that it is a virtue to be incompetent. And of course that's absolutely ridiculous. It doesn't make any kind of sense if you consider what Bahá’u’lláh was like, what ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was like, and what Shoghi Effendi was like.

[14:28] [Man speaking] Ruhiyyih Khanum, this is one thing I've always wondered. Since you brought up the Guardian's executive capacity I'll ask this question, I read The Priceless Pearl and Shoghi Effendi is someone I really would have wanted to meet.

[14:44] I should think so.

[14:46] [Man continues] But the question I've asked, I always ask myself is did he sleep much?

[14:54] Well, I'll tell you, he wanted to sleep more than he did. You see he had so many worries and I can remember that Shoghi Effendi... the burden of his work increased and his worries increased. Everything increased as time went by. The Cause expanded, the problems were greater, the work was heavier and many times he used to say, "Oh, if I could just once more sleep the sleep of my youth, if I could once more sleep 10 hours." It was very, very touching to me, because towards the end of his life he may have slept what, six or seven hours a night if that much, whereas he really needed more sleep than that. But he had too much on his mind, really a tremendous amount on his mind. He said to me that last year of his life, the last summer as a matter of fact before he died when we were away he said, "Do you realize that I now have to read..." Only read, not answering letters you see, or not doing anything else. He said, "...I have to read at least three hours a day to keep abreast of what is coming in." He had newsletters from different countries, you see. And in order to keep his finger on minutes, minutes of the NSAs - he received all the minutes of all the NSAs. We still do it in Haifa. We received the minutes of all the National Assemblies in the world. The only one he couldn't read was the German one. He could read Persian, Arabic and English. And I used to read the German one and then would abbreviate anything that was of interest, you see. But the point is, he had to read all of these things and the burden was getting unbelievably heavy. And he didn't get as much sleep towards the end of his life as he would have liked to have had. But he tried to get it, but he didn't get it.

[17:04] [Woman speaking] Can I ask what he died of? Is it a heart attack?

[17:13] He died of thrombosis of the heart. He'd had Asiatic flu, but he was recovered from that. And then he must have died in an instant in the night. And it was thrombosis of the heart.

[17:40] [Discussion about what Ruhiyyih_Khanum had wanted to remember to speak on, the topic of poverty is suggested.]

[17:55] Poverty? Oh, no. We were talking about poverty and riches. And I was saying that in this new compilation, The Desire of the World, that if you read what Bahá’u’lláh says on the subject of poverty and riches and the poor vis a vis the rich and so on. It's terrific. And He ends up by a pretty strong emphasis on poverty. No virtue of being rich. He doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to be rich, but there's certainly no virtue in being rich whereas there's a lot of virtue evidently in being poor.

[18:33] [Man speaking] Why is there a virtue in being... ['Audio cuts off].

[18:36]... The Desire of the World?

[Man continues] No.

[18:37] Well read it and draw your own conclusions. I can't draw the conclusions from it, but I think it's pretty clear. It's very extraordinary, His remarks.

[18:52] [Woman speaking] Was that the subject you were trying to remember?

[18:55] It was one of them. It wasn't exactly it.

[19:00] [Woman speaking] But the way, the way the future of the world will go when humanity had the universal planet and where all the resources of the world would be shared, and there'll be a new consciousness, it seems to me that the world will prosper in that the poor will become... not necessarily obsolete, but-

[19:24] Well it's all in the teachings. I mean it's socialism. In this sense it's socialistic and it's already enforced in most of the nations of the world, certainly all the advanced nations of the world. The poor, very poor are subsidized and the very rich are very heavily taxed. And that is what has happened all over the world. It has happened since He told in the Baháʼí teaching, since He wrote this principle that you would subsidize the poor if they were below a certain level, and you would heavily tax the rich if they were above a certain level. And that's what's happening through more socialistic concept. But on the other hand, the Baháʼís believe in, what do you call it? Not capitalism... independent enterprise. Right of independent enterprise. It's a very interesting system. You know, the Baháʼí system is quite different from anything else. Yes Joe?

[20:27] [Joe] That's what I was going to say. I remember Rowland Estall, former counselor Rowland Estall received a letter from the Guardian. Apparently he had asked a question like this. And Rowland showed me the letter. And the one thing that struck me in it was the idea that Shoghi Effendi said that it would be... the future Baháʼí system was neither socialism nor free enterprise, but taking the best from both. And there was one phrase. Something about in socialism the state owns the means of production, something like that, whereas in the Baháʼí, what will evolve from Baháʼí society is not a state ownership but rather central control. I don't remember what the language was.

[21:07] Look, Joe, but let me tell you something. When you don't know what the language is, you shouldn't cite it.

[Joe] Okay. I knew that was...

[21:17] No, I've had so much experience. I have had the Baháʼís - you see, you have to think of how much I travel and how many meetings I have with the Baháʼís all over the world, in the cities and in the villages, all right. The villages, they don't know how to ask questions like that, but in the cities they do. And I have found that the only way to deal properly with things of this nature... General things, yes you can say that Bahá’u’lláh says we should love each other and not backbite, you know and all these things but when you're getting into a subject that is as exact as a prognosis of what the future society is going to be under the system of Bahá’u’lláh, you got to quote the exact words you see. Because otherwise you just don't get a clear picture. And I found that that's very true. I remember I learned a great deal, obviously, through my experiences with the Guardian, people would come and they would ask him a question from the Baháʼí books and he'd say, "Where did you get that from?" You see? And they'd say, well I got it, say, from the old Baháʼí scriptures. If he had not translated it, he would not say anything on the subject. He said, "I have to see the original." The Guardian! Say "I have to see the original." He would not commit himself until he saw the exact original words, although he had the whole Baháʼí Faith in his hand. But when he was asked a specific question, he was not going to answer unless he saw specifically the reference, you see. And he was certainly not going to go by any translation that wasn't his own because he knew it might not be accurate, you see.

[23:01] And I remember in Bahjí when we had these meetings of the Hands after the passing you Shoghi Effendi, and I can remember one occasion... of course you can imagine we had tremendously important subjects to discuss, the whole weight of the Cause rested on us and we had to save the Cause, you see, after the passing of the Guardian. It was a terribly, terribly difficult time and a dangerous time. And I remember one of our, we had many subjects to discuss and one of the Hands quoted a passage from Shoghi Effendi. Well, it was a quotation, you see. And we said, "Well, where is it?" And he was really very offended because Hands were after all very, relatively speaking, informed Baháʼís. "No," we said, "We have to see it. Let's look it up. It was somewhere in the world order letters." Until we actually went, we got the passage, we found it. It didn't apply to where he was applying it because of what came before and what came after. He lifted a sentence out, which in his mind applied to the discussion. But the context was such that you couldn't possibly apply it in this case because that wasn't what it was applying to, you see? So I'm only using that as an example of how very, very exact we have to be. We have to really, when it comes to things that we want to say that, "Well, Shoghi Effendi said it wasn't gonna be capitalism and it wasn't going to be free enterprise. It's gonna be something else." Well you better get the exact words because then you're on safe ground. Otherwise you're just, you know, misrepresenting it or misunderstanding it or I'm not understanding you carefully but you're understanding what you heard from another person. You see what I'm getting at?

[24:58] [Woman speaking] I have a question Rúhíyyih Khánum. You know, especially in the States, I haven't heard the question much raised here in Haiti but in the States Baháʼís are very paranoid about the time of the catastrophe. So they like to talk about it and how it will come and how they will suffer and all those things. [Laughter]. It's true! I don't even know if [?] but in the States they have the paranoia. But all we hear about the time of the catastrophe is really pilgrims notes. I mean, what has been written have nothing to cite of what will happen. The Guardian did not say this would happen.

[25:37] Well I never heard Shoghi Effendi say anything precise about what would happen. You go to that book called the Citadel of Faith, which is a book that irritates me terribly because they did a terrible thing. They took... When Shoghi Effendi sent his messages to the Baháʼí world they were often in the form of telegrams, cables, and he really developed almost a language. You could call it Cable-es if you like. If you see it without any of the interpolations that were put in, it's extraordinary how clear and concise it is. Now in Wilmette, I mean this in the days of Shoghi Effendi, for what reason? I do not know. They seem to believe that the American Baháʼís were fools and could not understand what it said in plain English. So in parenthesis they kept putting the "the" and the "in" and the "of" and the "with". And sometimes through that interpolation they entirely changed the meaning. If you go back carefully over the Baháʼí News', you will find that Shoghi Effendi has sent them a cable correcting the misinformation that was done by putting the "with" instead of the "and" or something like that, you see? But he couldn't do it all the time. Now the British never did that. Whatever they got from Shoghi Effendi they just published it in the Baháʼí News. You either understood it or you didn't, but that's what they had received over his signature so you could fool around like themselves with that, you see. Now, when the American NSA got out the Citadel of Faith, they took the cables that had been published in the Baháʼí News, which as I said was with the Guardian really almost another language, Cable-es. Very concise and very interesting, and beautifully expressed but quite different from composition. And they left out all these brackets. I don't mean parenthesis, brackets. They took out all the brackets so that the mistakes that they had made in interpretation that previously you could say, well, it's in brackets. I don't think that's what he meant, had been removed. You see? [Audience comment] Yes, and it was extremely inaccurate. Now the House of Justice corrected that, informed them that in the future, whenever they published any of that material, they had to go back to the original text of Shoghi Effendi and forget about those brackets. Leave it entirely out, you see, because it caused too much misapprehension.

[28:21] But what I'm trying to get at is that nevertheless, in that book, the Citadel of Faith you have more on the subject of what the nature of whatever is coming might be like than in any other source that I know. You have it to some extent in the Promised Day is Come and you have it in the Citadel of Faith. But what isn't in the writings, how can anybody tell you? The House of Justice won't tell you. I can't tell you. How can I tell you what I don't know?

[28:54] [Woman speaking] Well we read things like, some principal cities in the world would evaporate.

[29:00] Look you see, this gets back to exactly what I was saying. The Baháʼís, I don't know why, not all of them thank heaven, but a great many Baháʼís that should know better live in a sort of an intellectual vacuum. They don't bother to read what the great scientists of the world say the next war might be like. They don't bother to read what the great statesman of the world say the next war might be like. They fiddle around with some of the prophecies of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the things that Shoghi Effendi has written, you see, and this is all they know about it. If you have an atomic war, it isn't what Shoghi Effendi said in a pilgrim's note that's going to happen. It's what the scientists tell you is going to happen. Where do you suppose he got his information from? From scientific opinion. You see this is the thing, if I may say so, that often irritates me very much amongst the Baháʼí. You have a thing called science. You have scientists. They have knowledge. They have information. They can give a, what do you call that? [?] What's the word in English?

[Woman speaking] Overview?

[30:25] Yes, an overview. It can give you an idea of what is going to happen. A forecast, you see. All right, why don't you listen to them? They're worthy of being listened to. But no, you go on a pilgrim's note that perhaps didn't half understand what Shoghi Effendi said in the first place. See what I'm getting about practicality?

[30:50] [Woman speaking] Khánum, a question about the Greatest Name, the power of the Greatest Name to protect us. And especially to protect us now from ghosts and spirits and things like that.

[31:09] You mean "Alláh-u-Abhá"?

[31:11] [Woman continues] Yes.

[31:13] Well what's the question?

[31:14] [Woman continues] Well, I'm afraid of the voodoo. And I'm gonna live out there in the village, and I'm teaching in the villages and just the other day, friend told me I was teaching on the porch of a witch doctor and I didn't know it.

[31:32] Well what of it? It's a good place to teach. [Laughter].

[31:40] [Woman continues] Yeah. He wasn't listening. [Laughter]. I mean his daughter was a little. I guess I wonder, you know, does the... sometimes I get so afraid that I can't even say the Greatest Name.

[31:54] Afraid of what?

[31:56] [Woman continues] Of a ghost.

[31:56] Of a ghost!?

[31:58] [Woman continues] Yeah. And you said something on your last visit which in one way help me an awful lot and the other way kind of, Oh, they really are there. But you said the last time that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said that if we see something, it's still only a reflection.

[32:15] Yes!

[32:16] [Woman continues] And yet, well that reflection sure sometimes gets a little violent, it seems to me.

[32:25]Well, what do you mean? My dear you've got to be more specific. What do you mean?

[32:30] [Woman continues] Well if like, something happens like, I feel like there's a ghost in the room or something like that, and I'm not the only one who feels that, you know, because an awful lot of the Haitians feel that way. This thing just it cannot possibly ever in any way hurt us? That's the question. Or with the Greatest Name, it can help us so if we pull ourselves together and say the Greatest Name...

[32:57] Well I don't think you should mix it all up. I think you have to get your thing straight. Some people are very psychic. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá never denied that there were psychic forces. On the contrary, he said keep away from them. Then what did he say about them? He said that you are using forces that come into play after death. Don't cultivate those things in this world because this is not the place for them, you see. He didn't deny their existence. He just said don't use them in the wrong place. All I know about psychic phenomena is what I've heard from my mother. Now this is not in the teachings, it's what I've heard from my own mother because my grandmother was very psychic. I think my mother probably had a lot of psychic capacity, psychic powers, whether I have any or not, I don't know because I never tried to cultivate them but my mother did. And my grandmother had it whether she wanted it or not, you see. Juliet Thompson was very psychic. They seem to attract psychic phenomena. People like that perhaps see ghosts or hear ghosts or have all kinds of peculiar experiences but it doesn't mean it's anything to be particularly afraid of, you see? But when you get this superstition and fear coupled with each other that you have, particularly voodoo in Africa and here in Haiti. It's stronger here than anywhere else in outside of Africa in the whole world, then you're up against a very concrete thing. There's no doubt about it that it exists amongst the people. That it is a reality to them, that it has a hold on them and that they're very afraid of it, you see. But that doesn't mean that we Baháʼís should be afraid of it. Why should we?

[34:43] Considering that a lot of it's superstition, a lot of it's misinterpretation of phenomena they don't know anything about in the first place. A lot of it is fear. Why should a Baháʼí who is living you might say in the light, light of the illumination of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, with all of their spiritual values and all of their intellectual values and clarification, why should they be afraid of it? I don't know unless, of course, they say it exists and they're afraid that it might touch them. But I don't think that it can touch them because I think it's the absence of other things. It's not nonexistent, but compared to the light, the positive light of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, the power of prayer, the protection that Bahá’u’lláh vouch safes His servants, I can understand why that should be stronger than a lot of mixed up thinking and all kinds of psychic hanky panky, and superstition and fear. How could it be stronger? It couldn't be, you see. Not reasonable that it should be.

[36:01] [Man speaking] I'd like to say something to that too. That sort of thing has bothered me a lot and what's helped me is that if you think of what is the worst possibility of something like that, or any dangerous phenomena, the worst thing is that you could be dead. And what's so bad about being dead? [Woman: I don't know]. [Audience laughter and comments].

[36:21] I love that, what's so bad about being dead? [Laughter and more discussion]. Wait a moment, where are we in this conversation now? Oh, it's not so bad to be dead. Violette has remembered the Tablet of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Let her tell us what it is.

[36:43] [Violette] You know there is a Tablet of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. I don't know what the question is, but from the answer it sounds as if a woman from America speaks about fear, something that she is afraid of. And it's, this fear is a reality to her and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá... it's this really the only one that at least I have heard of, that He so specifically gives an answer to it. He said put the Greatest Name in your room and a picture of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in your room and pray. And with these three, the fear will be dispelled. Now you try it because I don't know what was the problem of the fear of that lady but it may have been the same thing. May have been the psychic phenomena for her, I don't know. But you try it and see if it doesn't have... the three together, He said would disperse the fear.

[37:45] You see, I was telling these villagers in one of these meetings that we had the other day, that they have to realize that the dead cannot come back into the world of the living because they are dead. A baby that is born has never been known from the beginning of the world to the end of the world to go back into the uterus of his mother, it cannot. It has gone out. It has come into another world. Suddenly other faculties become operative. It can't ever go back into the world of the uterus. You die, you leave this world, you are born into a spiritual plane and you are not going to be able to come back into this world. Except as I understand it, as a reflection, you see. You can have a reflection of the thoughts of the person who is dead. They don't want to go away. Instead it's like a bird, if you've ever had a bird in a cage that was generations of birds in cages, they don't want to leave the cage at all. Like a canary that's generations born in cages. You open the door of the cage, you have an awful time getting the bird out. I've tried it with birds myself. They don't want to leave the cage. Or they hop out, they hop right in again. They don't want to go out of the cage. They've never known anything but the cage. They're attached to the cage, you see.

[39:10] Now as I understand it, it's a very good example of a person who dies. Their spirit should fly because now they're free. They have gone into another realm. They're out of the cage. But they're afraid because they're not detached, they haven't gotten out of it, you see. Instead of looking up and flying, they look back at the cage. They can't come into it but they can be reflected according to what my mother told me ‘Abdu’l-Bahá had taught. Their thoughts and even sounds of their thoughts, or their doings if you like in their mind, can be reflected under certain circumstances back into this atmosphere of ours.

[39:53] So you see them and you hear them. There's no doubt about it. Not always, not everybody, not different people. One person may be psychic and catch it. Another person may not. One house may exist that never, never, never had any psychic phenomena. Another seems to be full of it. And of course there's so much nonsense going on in the world today. Look at these stupid, ghastly movies that you see on television. It's perfectly horrible. This is exactly the reflection of this increasing superstition, if you like, and modern voodoo worship and fears in our society. Instead of thinking about God and His teachings and being a good Christian or a good Muslim or a good anything, far less a good Baháʼí, they're going off on to all these crazy ideas, you see. It's a malady in the world today, but there's no reason why we Baháʼís should catch it, certainly should be quite immune from such things.

[40:55] But I do think that we have to help the people to understand these principles. I used to tell them when I talked in the villages in Africa, because the fear is very deep-seeded and the belief is deep-seeded and the phenomena exists. I used to say, look, I am outside. I have left. I have gone out. But I come and I stand at the door and I cannot come back, impossible for me to come back into the house. But on the wall is a mirror and you look into the mirror and you see me reflected. I'm out there, I'm not inside the house, but I'm out there and you look into the mirror, you say she's back, she's in the house because you see me clearly in the mirror. But I'm still not in the house and I cannot come into the house, you see.

[41:44] And I think this is what we must teach the villagers. As Violette said, teach them to put the Greatest Name, to say the Greatest Name, to have the photograph of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, to pray, to realize that the light is always much stronger than the darkness and so on, you see. Help to free them of these superstitions and above all, help to make them understand. The people poo poo it, you see. And that's not fair because there is a phenomena, you see. And they're capitalizing on it out of their ignorance and some of them out of their desire for power like these voodoo creatures, whatever they are, priestesses, they capitalize on it because it gives them power. What power do these poor people have in the villages? Nothing. Barely enough to eat. So if they can have the power over the minds of other people through voodoo and hanky panky and fear and all kinds of things, this much truth and the rest all imagination, then naturally they cling to these things, you see. And the others have nothing. They're entirely misguided and they're governed by fear. [Pause]. Yes?

[42:52] [Woman speaking] In Some Answered Questions ‘Abdu’l-Bahá talks about that, about negative thoughts and He says to, you know, turn yourself to Bahá’u’lláh. And I can talk to you some more [unintelligible].

[43:13] [Man speaking] Rúhíyyih Khánum, I heard you speak at the youth conference in Kansas City a few years ago and you mentioned something that day that stuck with me. To me it's sort of related. You said that you don't have to just pray to God. You don't have to just pray to Bahá’u’lláh, that it was possible if you had a strong idea about who it was in the next world that you wanted to communicate with... I believe you had said the Guardian said this. But if you had a very clear idea in your mind about who it was that you wanted to communicate to that you could pray to someone.

[44:02] You know, it's a principle of intercession. You see in the first place no use praying to God direct because none of us are ever going to know Him directly. But people don't understand that. You cannot pray to something that you cannot ever come in contact with directly. I cannot go and put my hand in the sun millions of miles away. And if I approached it by what 100,000 miles nearer than I am now, I'd be killed immediately, you see. I can't stand it. I'm incompatible with it. But through the rays of the sun, I get all the benefits of the sun which I'm supposed to get. All right, we get that through the Manifestation of God. That's perfectly clear. So we pray. Although we say O my God. After all look at all the prayers of Bahá’u’lláh, they're all addressed to God. We are told to say those prayers, but we say it because we can reach Him through Bahá’u’lláh on this day, through the Manifestation of God. But then what Shoghi Effendi said is that we can ask others to intercede for us. And if you take that letter that he wrote about the passing of the Greatest Holy Leaf, I think it's the last paragraph in the letter, he said, O thou Greatest Holy Leaf, intercede for thy feeble... whatever it is, with thy father. He asks the Greatest Holy Leaf to intercede with Bahá’u’lláh for him, Shoghi Effendi.

[45:30] Now this principle of intercession is there. I can pray to my mother. I can say, "Mother, help me." I can pray to the Greatest Holy Leaf, sometimes I do. Sometimes at moments of intense anxiety I get ahold of the Greatest Holy Leaf, Martha, my mother, Keith, half a dozen of them and say, "Do something for Pete's sake", you see. "You're up there. Why don't you do something?" But he said you have to have the concept clearly in your mind. You mustn't befuddle the whole thing. If I want to pray to my mother, I mustn't think my mother is the same as the Greatest Holy Leaf, you see what I mean? If I want to pray to the Greatest Holy Leaf, I mustn't start monkeying around with theology and saying that the Greatest Holy Leaf is the same as ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Only one was perfect and manifested in the male form and the other was perfect and not manifested outwardly but inwardly and all kinds of nonsense in theology, you see. You have to, as he said, have a clear idea, you see, of what you are doing and then go ahead. You can ask the intercession of anyone. The principle of intercession is there. You may want to use it. You may not.

[46:51] [Man speaking] Let me ask you a specific question. The single event in my life which drew me towards spirituality was the death of my father. And he was not a Baháʼí. And I became a Baháʼí, I feel, because of the resulting dealings with that. And since then I feel a spiritual relationship has occurred. And I've read different things in the writings concerning the intercession of children on behalf of their parents, and then the benefit of a child who becomes a Baháʼí for parents that never did become Baháʼí. And I'm curious, my mother is a very spiritual person but very, very wrapped up in the psychic. And it's always like walking on glass because it's very important to me to keep the crystal quality of the spirituality of our family and yet not step into that psychic area but keep the relationship that I feel I have with my father.

[48:08] Well I don't see why you can't keep it. What's preventing you from keeping it? It's a real relationship between you and the soul of your father. Probably your father when he passed away saw everything very much more clearly. How do we know the mysteries of the soul? None of us know these mysteries. We really know very little, you know, in this world. And we're going to die knowing very little. But we must, we can see vaguely things like this. Maybe your father was very spiritually inclined. Something happened that when your father passed away, the veil was removed so that he did see the reality of Bahá’u’lláh, you see? How do you know? How do I know? All right, then he wanted to influence and guide you. Why not? Now you feel this closeness to the spirit of your father, which to me is probably a very real thing. What's the matter with that? Why should that pose any problems? You don't hear him talking to you when you're shaving or anything, do you? [Laughter]. Well alright. Why worry?

[49:07] [Man continues] Well I guess... Yeah I haven't shaved by the way. [Laughter]. Maybe I should start shaving!

[49:13] I got carried away, I didn't notice the beard!

[49:17] [Man continues] I guess my point is, how much of what I'm feeling is across this line of psychic? You know? How do you define what is a healthy spiritual relationship with the next world? And how do you define what is psychic?

[49:35] I'm sure I don't know. I think when you start getting direct communications... We had a very good Baháʼí when I was a child. Maybe he remembers the name of him. Albert Vail. Ever hear of Albert Vail? Albert Vail was a very old Baháʼí and he had been a minister. And he was a very good Baháʼí. He left the church, he accepted the Baháʼí Faith, and he was a marvelous Baháʼí speaker and obviously a marvelous Baháʼí teacher. And I mean, I can remember very clearly his services. But for a period of years, he was subsidized by the National Assembly, you see, to go around and talk and deepen the Baháʼís and so on. And then came the day when he couldn't really go on, sort of being Baháʼí minister. He had to think about supporting himself. It couldn't be a permanent thing. And this was a terrible test to him and he left the Faith. But, his wife was very psychic so it didn't really make any difference because he was now getting his guidance direct from his wife, who was in communication with Bahá’u’lláh, you see. So it worked out beautifully, skipped the whole intermediary procedures and she got a direct pipeline to Bahá’u’lláh where she could communicate to him when they woke up in the morning sort of thing.

[51:03] [Woman speaking] Did she remain a Baháʼí?

[51:05] I don't know whether she ever was one. But I mean why should she be any kind of an active Baháʼí when she had a special relationship to Bahá’u’lláh? Everything has its own balance. So many times Shoghi Effendi said this is the religion of the golden mean, the middle of the way. Bahá’u’lláh, you know, praises moderation. So strongly He speaks about moderation. Don't go to this extreme and don't go to that extreme. Keep somewhere safely in the middle.

[51:56] [Man speaking] The revealed prayers of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, would you say that they have more power than the prayer one would just say off the top of ones head?

[52:08] I think that they have in the sense that... but you have to make a differentiation between every single thing that is written for instance by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and by Bahá’u’lláh. Because only the word of the Manifestation is the bread of life. The life giving quality of faith to the whole world comes only through the Manifestation. Bahá’u’lláh was the Sun, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the moon. He reflected the light of the sun but it was not the same thing, you see. He wasn't the primary radiation, if you like. And I think that if we if we try to think of what we would have missed in the Baháʼí Faith without those beautiful prayers of the Master, without His example, without His talks, without His elaboration of the teachings, where would we be? It was it was an infinite mercy of God to allow us to have a prophet for a forerunner, the Supreme Manifestation of God Himself, the Perfect Exemplar in ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then on top of that this wonderful interpreter of the writings, Shoghi Effendi, and the builder really, in the sense of getting the bricks there and starting to erect them, of the Guardian. It's a great blessing, but we must again have it clear in our minds, the difference is not all the same thing thing. All the same religion, not all the same thing. Each is its own special place.

[53:39] [Woman speaking] You know Ali Nakhjavani, when we were on pilgrimage gave a beautiful explanation on prayer. And he said that the prayers revealed by Bahá’u’lláh are like a ladder that will take us, let's say, to the rooftop where we could communicate with God. So you say your prayers as they are written and your soul gets closer. Then when you get to the presence and when you're near your beloved, you can tell Him anything you want to tell Him. But first get there, and you get there through the prayers. And that was very touching.

[54:09] Well, I think that's a beautiful example, but I think that everybody is free to do it in their own way. Ali was giving the pilgrims an example so that they could take hold of the writings. Ali is a marvelous teacher. They could take hold of the word and use the word, and then they can also express it themselves. But he didn't say first you have to do this and then that and do it to the left and do it to the right. He'd never say anything like that. You can pray any way you want to. I personally have spent... so many prayers of my whole life have been me speaking to Bahá’u’lláh, probably infinitely more than my reading the prayers. There may be other Baháʼís who read the prayers and very seldom feel that they want to speak to Bahá’u’lláh themselves. And thank God we're all free to do it in our own way. But to deprive ourselves of the bounty of these prayers, of course, would be terrible.

[55:18] [Woman speaking] I'd like to talk about a touchy subject. It's about our attitude about poverty, especially us as pioneers being, let's say, on a throne of comfort, that is compared to the average villagers.

[55:39] You mean they're better off?

[55:51] [Woman speaking] Yes, that we're better off. And to teach things like, well poverty is a virtue. Poverty is wonderful. Poverty will get you to heaven. I would just like to have some kind of guideline. Like myself, I believe that God wants all of us to prosper. And that He through social interaction and greater civilization [?] that the whole of human society will become better so that everybody will have enough to eat. Everyone would be educated. We wouldn't have to starve. We wouldn't have to grovel for food, you know. So I'm just, it's a subject of controversy.

[55:31] Why should it be?

[55:32] [woman speaking] I don't know!

[56:34] Well I think you better get it all out and finish it as a subject of controversy because it's perfectly clear in the Baháʼí teachings. So if it's a subject of controversy, if you don't mind my saying so, then all of you that are having a controversy over it are wrong. Bahá’u’lláh says be grateful - what is it? - in prosperity and patient in adversity. And he doesn't say it's a virtue to be rich, and he doesn't say it's a virtue to be poor. And I don't know why anybody should go around teaching the poor, the way the Christians do, that it's blessed to be poor. Or for that matter, condemning themselves that they have more money than other people. What's the matter with us? Is that all we've got to say when we come to teach the Baháʼí Faith to people is to talk about poverty and riches and these subjects? I don't think that this is the point at all. We're all gonna be hit maybe by an atom bomb. Then would you mind telling me what difference it makes whether it's one of those ignorant voodoo people out there in the village that has barely got enough to eat, or it happens to be a very wealthy man? You're going to make any difference to him if he's killed? I think that's putting the emphasis on absolutely the wrong thing. If we will establish the order of Bahá’u’lláh, we will eliminate the extremes of wealth and poverty. Let's get on with building the Baháʼí order. What've we been asked to do? We haven't been asked to hair split about poverty and wealth. Where do you find that in any of the writings or from the House of Justice? They say go out and teach the people. I don't know about the messages to the other conferences because I wasn't there but I know the message to Montreal said very clearly that this is the time, they forecast that this is a period now when we will see much greater conversion in numbers to the Baháʼí Faith than before. It's right there in the message, you see?

[58:37] All right, let's get on with teaching the people the cause of Bahá’u’lláh. What do you care about whether they're poor or rich? Where does it say to teach the rich and not the poor? To teach the poor and not the rich? It says to teach people that Bahá’u’lláh has appeared in this world, that he has brought the remedy for all the ills of mankind, that this is the day which will not be followed by the night, that this is going to see the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. What do you have to go into socialism for? I don't understand it. I wouldn't waste two minutes on it, frankly. But if you got it on your minds get it out, this is a good time to get it out.

[59:17] [Woman speaking] No I don't think that it's [audio skips] brought up. You know, like we give classes on different things in the Faith like we give classes on different subjects. It's not, like if we have an institute, for example.

[59:33] You mean to say you give classes here in Haiti on poverty and riches in your institute?

[59:38] [Woman continues] No, no. No, no.

[59:40] I'm sorry, but I don't see what the problem is.

[59:38] [Woman continues] We've had institutes where we've had classes on child development and um, what else, I don't know the topics.

[59:50] What's that got to do with poverty and riches?

[59:53] [Woman continues] No, but what I mean to say is that, what attitude to take about it? Shouldn't we encourage people to say that it is possible to improve ones life situation with faith in God, for example?

[1:00:15] No. I would never teach anybody that. I could never truthfully as a Baháʼí ever go to another person and tell them that you accept Bahá’u’lláh and His teachings and you're going to find that you're going to have more material prosperity. I wouldn't dare say that because what Bahá’u’lláh says is that the highest station is martyrdom. Boy, that's a long way from material prosperity, that is death. You read that Hidden Word. He says, if we could find it only I don't want to take the time to... He says:

[1:00:47] "Write all that We have revealed unto thee with the ink of light upon the tablet of thy spirit. If this should not be within thy power," then, do something else.. "If thou canst not do this, then write with that crimson ink that hath been shed in My path. Sweeter is this to Me than all else, did ye but know."

[1:01:11] And would you mind telling me what He's talking about? He says the sweetest thing in My sight is your blood shed in My path. Didn't say anything at all about poverty or riches. I wouldn't dare teach anybody the Baháʼí Faith on the basis that in accepting the Baháʼí Faith, you are going to expect that God will help you to be in a better position materially. All I could tell anybody that is in accepting the Baháʼí faith you're accepting the Manifestation of God for this day and you have the privilege of being one of the builders of a new world order which will eventually come in to being. How soon? I don't know. But when it does come into being, it's going to be an order based on justice, which of course will eliminate, according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh when they are implemented in human society through governments, the extremes of wealth and poverty. But I wouldn't dare tell anybody anything else, nor would I consider it particularly valuable.

[1:02:23] You know, people all the time approach you here as beggars, and I just say, "[French phrase]". I say "No. [French phrase]". Because... don't think I haven't got sympathy for them. My heart aches for them because there's terrible poverty in this country. But that does not mean that I should encourage mendicancy because that's no solution. They lose every single bit of self-respect they ever had. It isn't solving the problems of the country. Problems of the country, like all countries first of all really are spiritual sickness but then on top of that terrific economic problems, it can only be solved on a very, very large scale. A scale of politics, economics, sociology.

[1:03:27] [Woman speaking] I'd like to add one thing on that subject. In the villages we have seen that when we appear to teach, sometimes being white and coming with the car, sometimes the first people who come to us are people who are interested in material benefits. We're not ignorant of it and we'll teach them all. And there will be a whole bunch of them who will say "Yes. Give me a card, I'm a Baháʼí." And you know exactly as they are signing that maybe the next time we come back they'd say, "Give me a job or give me your shirt or give me your shoes." We know that what happened also but we take the names because we know the faith is organic. And as it is living, it will chew up what is dead. And those people would be just drifted away. And through them, maybe through those people, the real ones will come the next time. We have seen that many times those people who are interested in material things and see let's say, especially a fat person in this country is an image of wealth. It's true. They don't look at Paul, they look at me and see dollars, you know. Those people that you don't even want them in the faith, you come back the next visit and they have brought people. And the people have brought other people. And let's say after three or four visits, you really get to the real Baháʼís and those first ones have drifted away. You never see them again.

[1:04:49] Because they can't profit by it.

[1:04:51] [Woman continues] They can't profit by it but have brought the real ones. But this is one point, I don't know if you've experienced it.

[1:04:57] It takes a great deal of understanding. It takes a great deal of patience and a great deal of understanding. But I think that it's very, very dangerous in a country as poor as this, where the needs are so crying and so great and the injustice is so great for the Baháʼís not to be extremely careful in their approach because we are not in the position of the missionaries. I mean, they asked... They would like us... Where was it we were the other day? They said, "Give us a Baháʼí school." I don't know. One of these villages that we were in just the other day, you see. "Give us a Baháʼí school. We need a school here, open a school." Well, we can't. We haven't got the money. We're not missionaries. We haven't got millions and millions of dollars to draw on behind us. We haven't so we can't, you see. You have to just not allow it to reach that point. The people have got to accept Bahá’u’lláh because they love Bahá’u’lláh and they believe He's the truth, not because of any personal advantage they think they're going to get from us.

[1:06:07] [Woman speaking] Or from Bahá’u’lláh?

[1:06:09] Or from Bahá’u’lláh. But that's at least between them and Bahá’u’lláh, but certainly I wouldn't dare tell them they're going to get a personal advantage through accepting Bahá’u’lláh. That's very dangerous.

[1:06:19] [Man speaking] Is it not true that the Faith is kind of taking a different direction now in terms of development? Like the Universal House of Justice is encouraging, particularly the Canadian NSA to become involved in development programs? So does that mean that the Baháʼís are becoming more concerned about the material welfare of the people in the developing countries?

[1:06:41] No, I think that the House of Justice is very glad if Baháʼís can show that they are sufficiently responsible and connected with a sufficiently well-organized business proposition to receive Canadian aid. Just a simple is that. But it doesn't mean that the House of Justice trying to milk the Canadian government to give us money so that we Baháʼís can spend it on our projects. Far, far from it. If Canadian aid is going to be spent in these countries, let's take Canada because we both know that's the one whose involved in it, you see with their programs. If the Canadian aid can be involved in anything that the Baháʼís become the instrument for helping the Canadian aid on a special project to do good, well that's fine because it gives us some prestige because they say, Look, those Baháʼís are reliable. They're involved in a sound project. They're good people. They'll see it through. They'll be careful, you see, whatever the nature of the thing may be. But still we're not taking any government money for our own projects. We're only offering Baháʼís who are sound and worthy, so to speak, on a project which would appeal to the Canadian government whether a Baptist did it, an Adventist did it, a Mohammedan did it, or a Baháʼí. Quite a different thing.

[1:08:25] [Man speaking] Yeah, I was going to mention that I've gone through various ways of dealing with things like what you dealt with in [location] with the man coming up with "when will the Baháʼí school be built?" Or that kind of thing...

[1:08:37] Well we've heard that all over the world, every place we've ever gone.

[1:08:41] [Man continues] The thing that's been working for me most recently is just to make nothing at all of it. And I think we attract the kind of people... we attract people according to the subjects we make something of, or the emphasis we put... the things we put emphasis on. And kind of by ignoring, or just not getting into material things at all, or not linking my coming to talk about the faith to anything material. That type of question, though it comes up, is very easily then dealt with. So that at least people won't ask me again. They might ask somebody else again but you know at least...

[1:09:25] No, it's neither fair, nor is it safe. Oh, my goodness! I had the most terrible experience in Africa myself. I was in... where was it? Liberia wasn't it? We were motoring after the Monrovian conference in Africa and a big meeting was arranged for us in a village. We were going on our way back across the next country in Africa, and we came to a large village and they had gone to a great deal of trouble, they had put pillars in the ground, you know, palm tree bowls or something or other. And they had put a very beautiful canopy of palms over the top as a shade. And they're really, I mean, about the whole area of this house. It was quite a lot of trouble. It wasn't just a small thing, like a little arch of palm leaves or something. It was quite a display. And they didn't seem very responsive when I was talking to them. And then when the meeting was open to questions, they said, "Well, how soon are you going to build the school you promised us?" Oh my dear, one of my dear fellow Hands had been through there and said, "The Baháʼís will build you a school."

[1:10:50] [Woman speaking] Well he should have built it then.

[1:10:52] Well no, they just they just felt expansive, you see. That of course, of course, we will come and we will build you a school. And we would love to give you a school. And you can be sure, you know, that someday we'll give you a school. And it was an extremely, you might say, spontaneous but devastatingly compromising remark, you see. And then here comes Violette and I and a member of the NSA to translate and so on and these people are very indignant. "Where is the school? When are you going to build the school that you promised us?" You see. What do you say to that? Very, very difficult. We have to be extremely careful not to say, "Oh well, we'll come. You wait. You give us time. We'll be back." You see, you just keep off at it. As Joe said, just close that door. If they want that kind of a handout, I'm sorry they'll have to go to the missionaries, but they can't get it from us because we neither have the possibility nor are we in that phase of the development of the Cause, nor as far as I know will we ever buy Baháʼís.

[1:12:01] I remember a man coming after the war from Ecuador and he was a Jew and a great friend of the Baháʼís there. And that was before we had mass conversion and he said, you know... He came, he had an introduction and I invited him to lunch and we had a nice time together and he said, "You know, you Baháʼís don't know how to do it." He said, "You can have as many Baháʼís as you want. If you want numbers, it's very simple." He said, "You open a soup kitchen and you ask your American Baháʼís in America to send clothes for these poor Indians. You'll get all the Baháʼís you want." And I looked at him in hurry and said, "You think we want to buy Baháʼís? We don't wanna buy Baháʼís. We want the Baháʼís to accept this Faith because it's from God and because they believe it is the truth for this day. We don't want them to accept it because we're giving them something to eat and some clothes. That's for the missionaries. Let them do it that way." And they do, they buy them left and right.

[1:13:04] [Woman speaking] Well I think I told you the man who came to the house asking for money for a school in Jacmel... I'd like to say to the friends here: when Rúhíyyih Khánum came into Jacmel, there's a man who came right up, at the meeting, the night of the meeting, he wanted to talk to me. And then he had to go to a meeting, I said come tomorrow. And he finally came, he says, "I'm the director of the school and we're doing assistance work and all that, [?] and all this. And since your boss is here, we would like to appeal to her if she could help and give us some money." And I said, "My big boss is here? Who's my big boss? I don't have any big boss." And he says, "Well the lady who is staying at the Jacmel." So they knew her while she's staying there. I said, "Oh she's not a big boss. She came to visit us because she loves us." And he was shocked! He was at first shocked. "And she loves everybody. And she came to see us because she really wants to see us. Now, as to help you, I am not in any position to help by any means. And the Baháʼís of this community are usually students, young people who are struggling to make a living of their own. But if you want, we can get them together and ask them what they think." And he was so disappointed that it came to some poor Haitians who will have to help this school. And I said, "I don't know when I will get them together but I will promise you the next time I find them together I will talk about your school and we'll see what they say." He almost said, you know [Exaggerated] "Don't even bother." And he says, "Well I'll see you sometimes I guess." And it was the end of it and he left.

[1:14:48] [Man speaking] ...very often, its just come down to the point with me sometimes where somebody keeps insisting and insisting and insisting and insisting at a meeting, I finally without blowing up, I just very simply say Jesus Christ, says how do you say it? Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all other things shall be added there unto. And the Baháʼí faith is bringing kingdom of heaven. We're bringing God's message for this day. I mean, we even had a Counsellor do this once here. I mean "We will not be able to build you a school at this point. We may never be able to build you a school. Maybe someday you will be able to build yourself a school, but I'm not here for that. And if he keeps insisting I say, well if this is what you want from the Faith, then this Faith is not the one that you should have." So they get to that extreme. I mean, there is just sometimes, something has to be said straight out so that we can get off that subject.

[1:15:44] Yes, but there's a lot of things you can say to people. I think that you want... we need more wisdom in our dealings with each other and with everybody else, the government and the people in the villages. But I don't see any reason why we shouldn't tell people the plain ordinary naked truth. Tell them that this religion is given to us free of charge and that we pass it on to other people entirely free of charge. It's a gift that was given us, and it's a gift we're giving to others. And that consequently we don't take any money from other people. Nobody can give us any money, unless they are a Baháʼí. And if they're Baháʼís, if they don't give, we can't publish our books and do our work and do this that and the other thing but on the other hand, nobody is forced to give. They don't have to pay for the Baháʼí chair they're sitting on like the pew in the church and so on, you see. They don't have a thing, frying pan tossed under their nose like the Catholic church to put your contribution in, you see. And they have to understand that. No reason why they shouldn't know it. Whether they like it or not it's another matter. Did you want to say something?

[1:16:55] [Man speaking] I was just wondering if it would be correct to say that it's really a question of wisdom and the approach to a particular group of people that economic development and material aspects of life are part of the Baháʼí teachings, like many other things, but if you're gonna teach a Frenchman you wouldn't necessarily be starting on the right foot to tell him that we don't drink alcoholic beverages.

[1:17:18] Well you'd have a little tact I hope.

[1:17:20] [Man continues] Yes. And the question of poverty and jobs and so forth is a very sensitive and difficult subject in a very poor country, particularly when the teacher is somebody who obviously has money. And so you get all tied up and complicated if you start on that subject. It's best to avoid that. It's not that we're trying to say that Baháʼís favor poverty by advising the people not to, you know, try to avoid this subject in teaching the Faith. Is that...?

[1:17:53] If the people were communist-inclined, then you'd really have a great deal of difficulty, because then they have the attitude of attack and subversion, you see. But if they are not, well then as you say you just... if they are like that you'd better avoid them. But if they are not, well then you have to, just as you say, handle it diplomatically, use your judgement.

[1:18:19] [Man continues] There are populations of students, for instance, in some countries where it's a very effective way of getting their attention and attracting them to the Faith to talk about the Baháʼí vision of the future world order. [Khanum: Oh, of course]. You know that can be a very useful approach, but certainly not in villages in Haiti.

[1:18:40] Exactly. In other words, wisdom is to give the person what they can take and what they need from the teachings.

[1:18:50] [Woman speaking] In Haiti, they love to hear the sufferings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. I think it's because the country suffers itself. They can relate. I think this is the foot in the door as they say, the suffering of Bahá’u’lláh. And somehow you teach everything. The administration, the principles, the laws, and all these things. And then you deepen them again on the sufferings. And they keep strong. They relate stronger.

[1:19:27] [Woman speaking] See Khanum, I can see what the problem is about poverty that they're talking about in a country like this, any country where there is poverty is the main thing in the country. The moment you start talking about Bahá’u’lláh, it will get to that point that what material benefits can we get? What can you give us? This is the obvious thing. They are poor, and the first thing in their mind is how we can get rid of this poverty. I think in that sense it's a very good thing in presentation of the Faith to speak of the future of the Faith. When the Baháʼí state and the Baháʼí teachings are in the world, as Rúhíyyih Khánum said, this poverty will disappear and so on and so forth. But personally in one week in Haiti, I think the real poverty of this country is not the lack of money, but is the lack of self-respect. They have lost their self-respect. This is why they beg. And if we Baháʼís can, even in a small degree, give this wealth back to the people, we have done them much greater good than if we can help them how to be rich, because that's not their problem. Their problem is that they have no pride in themselves anymore. It is simplest thing. You see people well-dressed coming and asking and begging. And at least in our own Baháʼí community let's help, and as little we can, because we can't do very much, the environment is such that you can't do very much, but at least the little that we can, give them back their self-respect, their pride. Let them understand that Bahá’u’lláh abhors begging. This is one of the things that he speaks about. He says not to give to the beggar simply because he wants to eliminate this awful thing that people beg. So really, I think that if you talk about giving back that wealth to the people, it's a much greater thing than money because that doesn't solve the problem. This is one. The second thing I think is wonderful to speak about in educating Baháʼís is that yes, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says that every person should learn some kind of a trade which they can make a living. You see, this aspect of it is very good. It's positive and it's very good.

[1:22:14] You wanted to ask a question here?

[1:22:38][Man speaking] I'd like to say I really, really agree with that. And I think that there is one... there's a group of pioneers in this room that have started small women's conferences. Very small, not large flashy things but just small livingroom things. And what they seem to be teaching the women is to have this self-respect. The women are closer in one way to having it, to being able to recapture it than the men, because they don't seem to have become so abased, I guess. And they seem to be the ones that have to hang on to the money and have to hang on to the few material things that they have because after all they have the children and they to try to raise them. The men could just disappear. And I think that that is an excellent way to go after that, probably, is to tackle the women first. After all this is the age where [?] are going to be in the forefront. And I think that the people who are on this women's committee should continue it because I think it really is a tremendous way to give them back self-respect that they're lacking, because we cannot give them the material things. And the men... it's very, very difficult. Very, very difficult to give the men that self-respect because the men feel they have the right to do whatever they please, so it's very difficult to talk to them. The women will listen and seem to be more receptive to what the Faith has to say. We're very glad to hear you say that.

[1:23:56] [Woman speaking] Khánum, I have a suggestion. I don't know what you think about it. I think it helps. The other day we heard in one of the villages in Les Cayes on the way, we heard that the Baháʼís of that village, they contributed $1 and few cents to the fund. Do you remember? [Another speaker: One dollar and forty cents]. Now, when you hear something like that, publicize it. Everywhere you go talk about it, mention that village and say the Baháʼís in such and such a village have done this. If you hear a little thing, tell everybody else so that this is in itself, you know, makes them respect themselves that they are amongst those people who give. And they have this feeling. Don't keep it. What I mean is that in United States and Canada we don't dream of talking about anybody or any community giving money. But here talk about it, and let everybody hear that they are Baháʼís, Haitian Baháʼís or communities who give to the fund. It encourages other people.

[1:25:06] Well, I think that's obviously very, very true and House of Justice is trying to get people to realize all over the world, and they've put a great deal of emphasis on it in the developing countries, that the National Assembly should try and get the people to understand the advantage of universal contribution, even if it's only a centime, you see. They have to understand that to give is the blessing, give. Give it to God, give it for the work of the Cause, just even one [?]. It doesn't matter. Don't feel ashamed that it's so little, just give it. And then as Violette said, talk about it. Be proud that they did give it, happy that they gave it. It's a wonderful thing that they should have given it, you see. But I think that there's another aspect to this and I think that the pioneers, I mean all of us have come from affluent countries. And we've come from an affluent background, more or less. Some of us more, some of us less. But the fact remains that very often when the pioneers come, particularly to a country as poor as this country, they have a terrible feeling of guilt, you see. They feel as if they were monsters because they are well fed, they had an automobile, they have some money in the bank back in Canada or the United States. They have clothes. They can buy what they want to eat, so to speak, relatively speaking, and it makes them feel terribly guilty. Well, I don't think that that's a very healthy attitude, because I don't think that it helps a pioneer to render any services if all the time they're feeling bitterly guilty vis a vis the people. Just say all right, who said the world had any justice in it? Bahá’u’lláh said it hasn't any at all. So don't worry over it. Don't feel guilty over it. Don't feel that you are wrong by having something and that they're right by having nothing. Get on with the important part of bringing people into the Faith because this is a religion that in order to implement the order of Bahá’u’lláh, requires millions of people. I always tell the Baháʼís, you cannot make bread if you take a tablespoon, put a tiny little pinch of flour in it and a teaspoon full of water and go like that. You can't make a loaf of bread. You've got to have a great big quantity of flour and the water, and then you can work it. You can knead it. You can make the bread, but you've gotta have the quantity or you can't do it because it doesn't work that way, you see.

[1:27:51] Now, in order to have the world order of Bahá’u’lláh we have to have humanity in the Faith, in one country or one region or all over the world, eventually. Can't do it any other way because His teachings all are applicable, except for the spiritual and moral teachings which are individual. The whole thing applies to millions of human beings. You can't get the Baháʼí system of economics, the Baháʼí system of education. None of it's going to work. The Baháʼí temples, the Mashriqu’l-Adhkár, the center of the community, the whole works. You can't do it without tens and hundreds of thousands and millions of thousands of human beings, you see, because that's the way that it's going to work. It's an order for the masses. It's a system for society, and society is composed of thousands and thousands of individuals. And I think that this is what we Baháʼís don't realize. People have got to enter the Faith. They've got to come in so that we will have something eventually to work with, to create the order of Bahá’u’lláh. We can't create it with what we've got now, how can we? A hundred and thirty NSAs, all right, based on what? A million Baháʼís in India—it's the biggest Baháʼí population in the world—a hundred thousand say in Bolivia, maybe a hundred thousand in [?]. You can't [?]. Bahá’u’lláh says the individuals must teach. They don't have to, I'm not going to go to hell if I don't teach. I can be a Baháʼí and believe in Him until the day I die. That's between me and Him. You can't force me to teach or anything, but still I'm encouraged to teach. It's my privilege to teach individually. I should teach individually. The children can teach individually. Everybody can. And then other methods, too. We're not gonna get anywhere unless we get people into the Faith.

[1:29:54] [Woman speaking] At the moment it seems that the most rewarding aspect of evening right now it seems to be the children and the youth.

[1:30:02] Well, that's good, too.

[1:30:04] [Woman speaking] We've been having success there.

[1:30:07] But remember that... That's fine but you're not going to build a world order on a bunch of kids. It's going to take 15 to 20 years until they grow up and you've got no guarantee that they'll be Baháʼís when they become grown up. I'm sorry to say that I've seen far too much of the Baháʼís of the world to believe that just because you've got a toddler running around now who's a Baháʼí, who says that child would be brought up with sufficient faith and attachment to the Cause that they'll be a Baháʼí at 18? You don't know. That's the job. Easy enough to have children's classes and teach the children to say their prayers but just you try to bring those children up so that they become Baháʼí adults. That's the thing. So you need adults. You can't even run the administrative order without adults.

[1:31:04] [Woman speaking] Rúhíyyih Khánum could you tell us from your impressions of Haiti, so far, just to help us have that vision or the possibility of masses of people...

[1:31:12] Well, you can't ever in the length of time that I've been here and will be here, go into a country in depth but I'm very attached to Haiti. And I came here as you know about 18 months ago. And I don't know why, perhaps because it is such a poor country, perhaps because the people are so dear. They're very dear people, the Haitians. Very, very lovable, fine people. And I'm very attracted to Haiti. Already I'm regretting as the days approach when I'll have to leave it and I'm thinking about whether I can ever come back again. And I don't feel that way about everywhere I go by a long shot. I go to hundreds of countries and I think, well, if I ever see them again it would be very nice but I have no urge to go back. But Haiti has a tremendous appeal for me. I think it is a country with tremendous, tremendous possibility. I think they're very lovely people. And I think that all though some of them, from what I had heard, although some of them are mercenary, they're far less mercenary than I was led to believe frankly. I think that there's a great deal of simplicity and dignity amongst the people. And I feel that as I go to the villages. Not all of them are like that, far from it.

[1:32:48][Man speaking] In the last few days Rúhíyyih Khánum you said... you've made quite a few comments with putting together... have given me at least a much better perspective on relative merits of service to the Faith in a country like this, building up Baháʼí communities in even the most remote areas compared with the kind of service of some very impressive industrial endeavor or financial endeavor in an advanced urban environment in some other country. And I know all the people here are here because they to some extent have felt that the relative merits of being here, but still we often lose sight of that, I think, and don't evaluate it very properly. And maybe you could say a few words on that subject.

[1:33:44] Well I don't know. I think that the pioneers, first of all, are always extremely precious because people often ask me why do I, in my talks when, I don't mean here but at home, you see, in source places so to speak. Why do I give so much emphasis to the pioneers? Why do I talk so much about pioneering? And I tell them that it's just a question of mathematics because they're in a country, say, talking to a big American audience. Well, most of them, for one reason or another can't go pioneering. Whatever the reason may be, the probability is that they cannot. And then there's a lot that won't, you see. Even if they could in theory go pioneering, they won't. They don't feel the urge to go pioneering. So that the people who are willing to go and pioneer are very small percentage of the Baháʼí population of as I say, a source material, if you like, for pioneering. And therefore I think that the pioneers are an infinitely precious group of people. To me, they're extremely precious and I think that they don't realize their own value. You know that old saying that you can't see the forest for the trees? You see it perfectly at a distance. You say what a beautiful woods that is. Oh, if I could get up there and walk amongst those beautiful trees, that lovely forest. And you get there and all you see is just one bowl of a tree after another. You can't see the forest at all. You're in the middle of it. And it's very, very hard not to lose your perspective as pioneers. I think that's the thing. You lose your perspective and you lose your sense of confidence. You think, Oh Lord, I'd be better if I was a pioneer in Taiwan. They seem to be doing better over there, you know? Or maybe I better go to the Pacific Islands. What am I doing here in Haiti? Sort of thing. And I think this is always a great danger because Baháʼís who are in a place and are beginning to be adapted and beginning to understand the people and of course, in case like this beginning to understand the language, their value is tremendous. And a new person coming in just has to start the whole circus all over again. Whereas if you leave, you have to go and start your circus somewhere else. And you deprive this place where you got the know how and the experience and you had at least in the beginning the desire to come here. You deprive it, you see, of the benefit of your presence. I think it's very hard not to lose your vision as a pioneer. And while I'm here, I'm going to say that to you because I want to say it to you, I may not have another chance but I really don't think you realize what you've done here, you two. And I don't think what you poor man, realize what you've done with that school. Really! If you think that it's lost on your fellow Baháʼís and that they don't understand what you've been through and what you've accomplished, you're mistaken. I think it's marvelous what you've done here. And I think you must feel very, very grateful to Bahá’u’lláh that you've been able to render this wonderful service. I don't know. What happened the other day wouldn't be there if it weren't for you. And I know it's been terribly hard for you, both of you, I'm sure it has. But then now you're beginning to see that God willing it's beginning to roll a little, you know, beginning to... Oh, I wanted to ask you. Do you need any more teachers? Or you have enough?

[1:37:25] [Man speaking] I would be glad to have [Khanum: Haitian teachers?] another French-speaking teacher. Really good French speaker.

[1:37:33] Good French speaking... I don't know about the good part. I was thinking of poor old mama. You know, I met a Baháʼí in Jacmel, or he was in La Vallée. He used to work for this - what's the name of this organization? [Audience answers]. Yes, Foster Parents Association, and they had a school in Jacmel. Now how, I don't suppose his French is the quality you want, or I don't even what he was teaching. What was he teaching?

[1:38:02] [Woman speaking] He was teaching the kindergarten.

[1:38:04] Kindergarten, that's very low. Probably doesn't need another kindergarten teacher. Lovely Baháʼí, very fine young man. Very devoted.

[1:37:53] [Talk among the audience about the kindergarten teacher and people who may know French.]

[1:39:26] Well, they have to keep up the scholastic level of the school, you see. They'd have to be very careful who to employ. No, I just thought that I'd ask him if he needs more teachers. Well, any more questions? What's going out on the balcony there? The cool annex...

[1:40:01] [Woman speaking] Without putting any excuses for like for [?], I'm not including that, I'm just talking about dedicated Baháʼís. Isn't the most difficult task is to realize that it's going to take a long time, that really instant results are not going to happen. And it's a long...

[1:40:22] Well, what kind of results do you mean?

[1:40:27] [Woman continues] To have strong, dedicated believers.

[1:40:31] [Long sigh] My dear, it takes a long time. I was saying the other day that I remember my mother in Montreal. We had the first community in Canada, a very united community, a very fine community, the biggest community certainly at one point, and that only meant about maybe 30 or 40 people. And when we had the 19-day feast, mother would know that some of them were coming to the meeting but she used to call up all the ones that she wasn't sure if they were going to come. And she'd say, "Madame Trombley, are you coming to the meeting Friday night? You know, it's the feast." And Madame Trombley would say, "Well, I don't think so. I'm not feeling very well." Or "it's cold" or "it's too far" or something, you see. And my mother would say, "Well, if you come, I'll send you home in a taxi. I'll pay for the taxi." Or, usually I was the taxi and I would take all of these Baháʼís home at 11 o'clock at night in a blizzard. And I remember once complaining because we had a car, were only two Baháʼís in Montreal in my girlhood that had cars. One was myself. I mean my father, not I, and the other was Freddie [?]. Nobody else in the Baháʼí community had that much money. And then of course very few people had cars relative to this way of two cars per family of our civilization. But in those days, it just didn't exist. And I complained, I said "Mother, it's terribly cold. You know?" And she said, "Aren't you ashamed of yourself? You young woman with a car? You want her to go out and wait for the streetcar in this snow storm? Aren't you ashamed?" Well of course I was ashamed for about 30 seconds, and then I immediately got into the car and drove her the 20 minutes to Verdun and the 20 minutes back in the middle of the night and so on, you see? And this was the way I was brought up. I was really a Baháʼí chauffeur.

[1:42:52] My point is that it took so long to get the people, even in a place like Montreal, all literates taught by one of the disciples of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my mother, and everything else put together. But still it took so long to get some of them rooted in the Cause sufficiently to come to a 19-day feast on their own power. So why should we be surprised at what time takes to get people here? It's only natural. We shouldn't expect babies to be adults. And I get very angry with the Baháʼís because we're not surprised that that tiny little child is three. Isn't she three? [Audience: No she's 16 months]. Well, whatever she is, we're not surprised that she's a baby, that's what I'm trying to say. But when we have Baháʼí babies, we seem to think they should be adults. It's so unjust. Why should they be adults? They're babies in the Faith.

[1:43:57] [Woman speaking] When Ali mentioned that, what takes my mind was the approach that Counsellor Arbab is introducing to us. What I find that it does, it helps us plant the seed of teaching and then deepens them, and then constant nurturing is taking place so eventually will come from that.

[1:44:20] You mean these teams?

[1:44:22] [Woman continues] The Ruhi institute technique, I call that. I'm not really well informed it.

[1:44:25] The what?

[1:44:26] [Audience member] The technique I mentioned to you when we were driving to Jacmel. Where we go with those booklets and we deepen the families and we're deepening individuals and...

[1:44:34] Well, that's fine. That's fine. It mustn't be the only method but it's a wonderful thing.

[1:44:37] [Woman continues] No, but it does stimulate that kind of consistency that...

[1:44:43] Oh my goodness, this is what - look. People ask me when I'm traveling. They say, "How do we deepen? What is deepening?" I say just two words: go back. For us, no. For us, deepening is to think more, to talk more about the faith, to go to institutes if we've got them and summer schools and read. But that's for us because we have the possibility but most of the Baháʼí world, to me deepening means two words: go back. Go back and see them again. And they may ask you the same questions and it may be a repetition of the previous meeting, because again non-Baháʼís that never heard one word about it will come into your meeting, from one side of Africa to the other, Violette and I after all were together. She's a witness. I always hoped that I could have a deepening meeting with the Baháʼís, and I never had one. Because I never had a meeting that there weren't people who didn't know anything about the faith. So I had to begin all over again with progressive revelation and who Bahá’u’lláh was and the teachings over and over and over. I never, never could get beyond that point because there were always a lot of people that had come in, whatever the nature of the meeting, and they just had to be taught what it was all about from the beginning. But then it didn't do the Baháʼís to hear it all over again anyway. But I think this system you have is fine, but my point is that whatever system you have of going back and these teams which are so valuable, the whole picture's changed here in Haiti. As a matter of fact, it's lucky I didn't know about it because if I had... no, I'm quite serious, at my age with the amount of things I have to do and my fatigue after this long journey through Canada, I would not have come back to Haiti if I had known the work was going so well in the villages. But I didn't know it. I didn't know anything about these teams. I didn't know that it was going ahead so well. I remembered how nothing was happening in the villages 18 months ago. And I thought, "Well, if nobody else will go, I'm going." And that's why I came back. So you can see how much difference there is if I wouldn't have come if I'd known how well you were doing.

[1:47:16] [Woman speaking] Can we ask you a little bit of your experience at Île-à-Vache? Could we ask you about your experience a little bit, your story when you went to Île-à-Vache?

[1:47:28] You can ask all right. [Laughter]. Well we rented a boat with a perfectly beautiful captain about that high who knew everything presumably about an outboard motor. Nine of us, a very spiritual number, took the boat and we had, it was an open rowboat about as long as from there to here and about that wide. Good solid boat. And we started out and there was a captain. And thank God he had a, I don't know what you'd call him, a cabin boy or boatswain or something or other. Anyway, he had an adjutant about 12 years old. And off we go with the wind blowing and the white caps increasing and Là-Vache Harbor being just the wrong place instead of being the nearest part it was the furthest part. Anyway, we got there and then everybody got busy and they went around and they made contacts with people. And Michelle's very - Michel is very useful and the two board members. I mean, the two assistants of Michel were very, [Edison?] what's the other fellow? Gaston? They hustled around. And Renee and all of us, and we found a place to hold a meeting and then we went down by the beach and under some palm trees. And a lady brought out a table from her house and people began to be added unto us out of curiosity and out of hope for something to eat and this and that. The prefect turned up. He's the prefect for the whole island, which has 7,500 inhabitants. It's quite a big island. And anyway, the point is that we invited him to sit down and have lunch with us, and we all sat and ate our lunch together. We'd brought you know, sandwiches and boiled eggs and so on. And then they began to - I asked Rennie to talk because he's Haitian and he has gray hair. And he's a very old and devoted Baháʼí and he talked very well. And then they began to ask questions. They asked me to say a few words. I just said why we had come to see them, that we were interested in meeting them and so on, a few words. And then the meeting went on. The next thing I knew all of a sudden we had 28 enrollments. And after what, two or three hours wasn't it? How long were we there? Two and a half, three hours? [Audience answers]. And it went very well. Obviously what these people know about the Baháʼí Faith that were enrolled is almost zero, but it doesn't matter because it's simply a beginning. It's something to get a hold of to go back to. But the prefect is, I consider a very valuable person if he can be cultivated because he was thoughtful, he kept saying he had this book, you know, the Baháʼí Faith, the illustrated one. And they had explained all the pictures to him and read him all of these things and he said, "But I believe this." And I had the impression, then I walked back to the boat with him afterwards, he's a relatively educated man. He understands French quite well as opposed to just Creole. And I had the feeling that he had capacity, that it was really something there that could be built on. Then the woman who brought out the table was a delightful woman with, I believe, real capacity to be deepened as a Baháʼí. She enrolled too and her daughters and everybody was standing around seemed to enroll. And then we left. And the captain seemed to be not too happy about his outboard motor. It's a long way. What did that fellow tell me? He told me 68 kilometers. Could it be that far? Well it's a hell of a distance if you don't mind my saying so. When you get out there in a tossing rowboat it does not look near, John.

[1:51:23] [Woman speaking] Could he mean 16 kilometers?

[1:51:24] Oh no! No, sir. Much more than that. You can barely see the steeple. You can barely see, what do you call the place? Les Cayes from the island of Île-à-Vache. Could barely see it.

{{t|1:51:45} [Audience discussion].

[1:52:03] So then we started back and two-thirds of the way across the motor gave up, entirely. And they had these perfectly beautiful oars which are a couple of tree trunks with a huge piece of wood nailed on the end. And they had no oarlocks, which worried me very much and made me very angry. It had exactly one peg to hold four... instead of two pegs, and two pegs to put your oars in. They had one peg. So they took the rope and it was all this little boy that was doing everything. He's the only person who had any brain. I would have thrown the captain over, especially when I heard that they had a lot of [?] in the water. [Laughter]. They just tied, bandaged the oars onto the boat. And then we were still a long way from the coast, and Michel was doing the rowing on one side, thank you very much for your assistance and everything, and what you call it, the little cabin boy was doing it on the other side. And a sailboat went by with a spanking wind and a number of people on board. And he kept waving his arms at them and I waved like this and nothing happened. They just went straight off into the distance.

[1:53:26] [Michael] They waved back.

[1:53:27] Yes. [Laughter]. They waved back. Oh yes I forgot that. Anyway, the point is that the sun was setting quite near the horizon so that it could have been... and the wind was rising and the waves had white caps on them. It could have been a very nasty situation because I didn't fancy our spending the night in that boat with seven men. Not that I had anything against the men but I didn't think it was going to be very private. It was really...

[1:53:57] [Woman speaking] Actually there were nine men.

[1:54:00] Oh yes, nine men. Excuse me, and you and I, nine men. Anyway, the point is that they were rowing. We might eventually with the rowing have reached the shore providing the oar didn't break or something, or the rope. And a sailboat came out. And the thing that if any of you have ever done any sailing, the thing that fascinated me was that that boat could maneuver so close. She came out. There were two people on board. She was this relatively small sailboat. And she maneuvered close enough for the boy to pass the anchor of our boat in the prow to the other boat and then pay off the, you know, the rope of the anchor and then he towed us. And he got enough wind. There was a good spanking wind and he towed us all the way into the harbor. Otherwise, we'd still be there probably or at the bottom of the ocean.

[1:54:54] [Woman speaking] The sailboat knew you were in trouble?

Well, otherwise he wouldn't have come out.

[Some related discussion and a dog has been barking in the background for some time].

[1:55:13] Yes, but you're not sure whether they didn't say something. Oh that damn dog, I hate dogs. Really. [Audience member saying something about dogs]. No, it's not a question of that. Human beings, they're not supposed to be sacrificed to everything. And I don't like barking dogs. We have them in Haifa, too. The point is not that. The point is that I think that Pier... I said, "How did you get here?" He was waiting on the dock for us. And I said, "You didn't plan to be down here?" His house is way up on the hill. He said, "Well, I just wanted to be sure you got in." So at half-past five, he was down there on the key waiting for us. Now whether he noticed we were in trouble and sent that boat out or the other people that came in and he and everybody else noticed we were in trouble, I don't know. But it's a good distance.

[1:56:10] [Woman speaking] Did you have a success in the other areas of your trip, too?

What?

[Woman continues ] I mean heard of Île-à-Vache, the other spots you went.

Oh, come on. You tell us, tell them where we were, Greg. I'm itching. Something bit me.

[1:56:30] [Greg] We had excellent meetings everywhere. We stopped in [? sounds like Charlie] on our route on the way to [?Kai]. And we had a very pleasant meeting in Uncle [?]'s house in Kai. And then a very substantial meeting in [?]. Michel kept coming back with more truckloads of people and this place was wall to wall, more than 50 people there. Very, very good spirit almost.

[1:56:54] No, it was nice meetings, all along the line. Very nice meetings in the Jacmel area, very nice meetings in the Les Cayes area, on the way going those two villages were very good meetings. I would say that it was eminently successful, and I certainly enjoyed it very much.

[Man speaking] You know it's also in the plan.... [Audio cuts off and resumes in the middle of laughter]

[Man speaking] Not quite so far by boat.

No, that's near. That's a good distance.

[Woman speaking] That's where the invasions took place.

[Man speaking] We can certainly arrange something in there, you know.

[Woman speaking] Well, maybe you can invade them, too.

What?

[Woman speaking] You can invade them, too.

[1:57:36] Now I wish I knew. Certainly it's not 68 kilometers, obviously, but I'd like very much to know how far it was. You're looking at the wrong island John. [Audience discussion].

[Woman speaking] Well how many inches is it? But anyway you can see the island from Port-au-Prince.

Sure, you can see it but that doesn't mean it's near. It's a big island.

[Inaudible discussion].

[Man speaking] About 50 kilometers, I'm surprised it's not more...

No, I think it's more than that.

[Woman speaking] How many hours does it to take to get there?

Two hours. More than two hours.

[Man speaking] Okay, that could make sense.

More than two hours with an outboard motor, and a good motor. It worked all right going.

[Woman speaking] Well you know, [?] when you leave [?], the [?] in the woods of Jacmel, [?] is 12 kilometers from Port-au-Prince. 12 kilometers, and it seems like a huge distance. The only thing is when you get in traffic in to [?] then you're stuck for half an hour. It means you feel it's a long distance, but it's short.

Well I'll tell you, nothing feels a longer distance than a rowboat with the waves coming in practically over you.

[Woman speaking] Only thing is that on the map if you measure it like that, but the boat doesn't go that way. It goes all around and it's not straight line.

And then, John, it goes to the end.

[John] Yes, no you're right. Which way around did you go?

[1:59:51] No, you go this way. You see. This is Les Cayes, you see. Now this is the nearest part of the island, the harbor is there, you see. So that was also... because you could hear the island began to seem quite close. But you had to go all the way along here, way over there, you see. And coming back, fortunately we had the wind behind us but it was quite a rough sea and the white caps were getting up. And poor Violette and I, it was a new experience, I don't know about Greg. [Audience discussion] I would rather be in a sailboat because if there's a wind then you're all right, it's a sailboat. But really it may not go as fast as a good outboard motor but it goes. And of course the trouble with the rowboat is that this damn fool, excuse my French, got in the trough of the waves, which is very unpleasant, you see, because it maneuvers itself. It drifts in such a way that instead of having the waves behind it and lifting it like that, it gets this way and then it's rocking and the waves are coming towards it and a danger coming into it.

[2:00:51] [Violette speaking] Actually, we have some casualties.

What do you mean casualties?

[Violette speaking] I came back wounded and Rúhíyyih Khánum's umbrella was broken.

But my umbrella saved her life. She fell on that instead of breaking her neck or something. She fell on my umbrella, which I would glad to sacrifice in Violette's service.

[Woman speaking] Well this is horrendous. If anybody would like to have a boat, a good fiberglass double boats to go to Île-à-Vache, we have a very good boat craftsmen in Jacmel.

Now look, come off your perch. How much would it cost?

[Woman speaking] Well a boat the size of the length of this room, a little smaller. Let's say from the wall until here.

That wall to there!?

[Woman speaking] This wall.

Wow, my dear, that's two bathtubs. [Laughter].

[Woman speaking] Is that the length or the width?

[Woman speaking] That's the length and the width is that much. It's a $700 boat. And this is built, too. There is the inner hull and the outer hull. There are two hulls.

[Woman speaking] Will the oars come with it?

[Woman speaking] Oars? I don't know. But it's a sailboat and you can attach the motor in the back.

Well you can always hang an outboard motor on, even a bathtub.

[Woman speaking] Then he has one little smaller for $400.

How much does an outboard motor cost?

[Man speaking] A motor, quite expensive.

[Woman speaking] It could be up to $2,000.

An outboard motor? A small outboard motor? That's ridiculous.

[Woman speaking] Let me tell you, about $2,000.

Good gracious. Why, when I asked the price to an outboard motor in Panama many years ago, it's only what, $200-250.

[Woman speaking] [?] And that was Panama. [?] She was quoting every price here and she was cutting it in half, then in half and that was the price of Panama. Everything is so cheap in Panama.

[2:02:59] No, in those days, many years ago. It depends, you know. You don't have to have a brand new one. If you're a good mechanic and the motor's good, you don't need to have a brand new outboard motor. You just need to have a good outboard motor and somebody who knows what to do with it, which that captain didn't. Well at least Arnold likes dogs.

[Man speaking] That was a very historical trip. Were you the first person to set ashore? [Laughter].

No, I - good gracious. They had to draw the boat up and hang on to it. It was tossing like a cocker shell.

[Woman speaking] But she was the first Hand of the Cause there.

Probably the last, I can tell you that. [Laughter]. I'd like to meet the one that goes in my place next time, especially you tell them at two-thirds of the way the boat conked out.

[Man speaking] [Name?] was flabbergasted that the World Center of the Baháʼí Faith knew enough about world geography that they wanted Île-à-Vache of Haiti opened up by the Baháʼís. So how could an organization headquartered that far away [Khanum: Very true.] know about a little island like that? It's not even on most maps.

Well, that's an idea. I'm going home and ask the House of Justice, "How the devil did you know it was there?" [Laughter and comments].

[Woman speaking] I'm sure [?Emblath Black] sent them a very good map years ago.

Did you suggest it, Julie, the NSA?

[Julie] I don't think so.

[Woman speaking] Come on, Julie. Answer us.

These smart Counsellors, they never go anywhere in boats. [Laughter] .

[2:04:53] [Man speaking] Is there some spiritual significance to islands? I get the impression that there is. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá certainly made mention of a great many islands....

Well they're there. Why shouldn't they be taught too?

[Man continues] Yes, but they seemed to be... Haiti for instance is mentioned I think three times in Tablets of Divine Plan. Very few countries are mentioned that often. [Unintelligible].

Well it's a pretty historic part of the world, you know. After all, Christopher Columbus got here before he got there.

[Man speaking] And they were the first black republic.

Yes, very historic.

[Joe] Here's a question for you. Coming from a Jewish background, I don't understand this being saved business completely.

You don't what?

[Joe] ...understand the business of being saved.

Being safe? Safe or saved.

[Joe] Saved. We used to get tracks under our door at home.

Really? You must have resented it.

[2:05:57] [Joe] Because being one of five Jewish families in an otherwise Baptist, Mennonite and Pentecostal whatever else there was population. [Audience member: Muslim]. We had five, I should have kept them, I'd have had a good collection. And this idea of being saved was very much a part of it. And the way I understand it is that if you believe in Jesus you will be saved, which means you go to heaven. If you don't believe in Jesus...

You go to hell.

[Joe] You're going to hell. Now, this sometimes comes up. And I found a way, maybe I found a way of dealing with it, but I'm not sure in my own way, in my own mind what the writings are communicating. Sometimes I get the impression the writings are communicating that if you're not a Baháʼí - I mean, this is putting it in very simple terms.

It's the same principle, Joe, for all religions. You have to accept the point of guidance and adoration, the Messenger of God for that period in history. You got saved through Moses in the days of Moses. You got saved through Jesus in the days of Jesus. You got saved through Muhammad in the days of Muhammad. And you get saved through Bahá’u’lláh on the days of Bahá’u’lláh. Just a simple is that.

[2:07:13] [Joe] That's what I thought.

We better put another tract under his door.

[Woman speaking] Yes. Have you heard of the Baháʼí Faith? [Laughter].

[Joe] But then someone will say to me, inverily say to me, that means if you're not a Baháʼí, you're not saved and you're just like all the other religions. Yours is the best.

Well I don't know how you maneuver yourself in that position. I'm very good at not getting cornered.

[Woman speaking] I have to answer that if I may. There's something ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said that the Christian could attain, really could fulfill Christianity even if you never heard of the Baháʼí Faith and you lived according to the teachings of friends.

What, what what? Come again?

[Woman speaking] ‘Abdu’l-Bahá - maybe I'm paraphrasing it.

You better not, you know, you heard my opening speech tonight.

[Woman speaking] I did, yes. The person, a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew, even if you never heard of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, but if he lives according to the writings of his own religion, uhh... I lost myself. [Laughter].

[2:08:27] [Violette speaking] I think it's very good to lose... But Joe, let me tell you something which I heard last week. It's marvelous because it applies to you, also. Rúhíyyih Khánum was talking about somebody asked about this being saved business and then it went on and Khánum said that in this room people we have got all people of Christian background. And she turned to me and she said, "And Violette, her father is Jewish and her mother is Muslim." So this man turned around and said, "Oh, it's all right with you. You are saved already because you're [?] part Jewish." So I wanted to tell you next time they talk about saving, you say [?].

[2:09:19] [Joe] That's good to know. [Laughter and comments]. I was on La Gonâve island professionally, it was a research study I was doing for church world service. So naturally, I couldn't do much travel teaching but half the island is Wesley and controlled by American Wesleyans and the other half is- no, the other half is controlled by American Methodists, I don't know which sect, the free will or the no wills but one of the wills, Methodists controls that part. And they got very much interested in... and on those islands between those two different sects there's not much fun because the Wesleyans discourage anything that even looks like fun. And the Methodist weren't much better. And so the entertainment on that island for most people seems to be going to church and sitting around and talking about being saved. And somebody asked me the question: so since I was working for church world service at the time, some people called me, thought I was a pastor. I corrected it but you know... "Is it true that if you don't believe in Jesus, you're not saved?" And you know they asked me that question. [Laughter]. And I forget what I said, I simply got over it. Said something that people liked. But I was interested in it because people have said to me, very simply, "Well that means you Baháʼís, you say you want to unite people but you're dividing peoples too because you're telling them if they're not Baháʼís, they're not saved. They're not really spiritually going to develop." Yet we also teach that we must not force people...

[2:11:09] Look, Joe just sidestep it. Don't get into these controversial issues, you know. That shows you're Jewish. [Laughter & comments]. We live in Israel after all, we ought to know. That's all right. That really choked him off. Yes?

[Woman speaking] Do you feel that the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh is working through all the different aspects of society, organizations, and institutions, and not just through Baháʼí, Baháʼís and Baháʼí Faith. Like throughout all of society, all through races and government?

[2:12:00] Well I can't... I don't know what Bahá’u’lláh is doing, frankly. I don't profess to be... It's private information, but I do know one thing...

[Woman speaking] I'm quoting you Rúhíyyih Khánum when you told [?name] back in '61 that you had never heard of Bahá’u’lláh sending anyone [inaudible].

What, what, what? What did you say? Julie, what did you just say?

[2:12:28] [Julie] When you asked Mark where he was planning to go when he was [?] out of the army he said "Well, where ever Bahá’u’lláh wants me to go." You asked him again, and you said well listen Mark I've never heard of Bahá’u’lláh sending anyone a postcard. Do you remember that?

[2:12:42] Nope. [Laughter]. Thank God I don't remember the things I've said. [Some discussion].

[2:12:58] No, I want to answer her question because I can only answer it the way Shoghi Effendi did.

[Some unrelated discussion].

[2:13:26] Shoghi Effendi gave the really most marvelous example of this subject. He said that two plans at work in the world. There's our plan as Baháʼís, which is the plans inside the Bahá’í Faith, inside the faith of Bahá’u’lláh in other words, and we are working to achieve the beginning of the dawn of a new era, if you like, through the execution of the Divine Plan of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the implementation of the different plans. First the plans of Shoghi Effendi now the plans of the House of Justice. But these are entirely internal plans run by the Baháʼís and executed by the Bahá’ís. Then he said, there is another plan, which is the plan of God and over which we have no control whatsoever, nobody has. And that God can work through politics. He can work for war. He can work through earthquakes. He can work through floods. He can work through famine. He can work through any means that He wishes to shape the destiny of the world, you see. That these major forces are the force used by God to shape the destiny of the world. He said and we in the mean time have specific plans for the execution of our own Baháʼí work. And he said eventually these two plans would meet. It's the most marvelous, simple example of what is happening to the world. God is leading the world through his own forces. We Baháʼís are fulfilling the plan of Bahá’u’lláh through obeying the instructions and plans given us by Master the Guardian and now the House of Justice. Very lucid, very clear. I had nothing to do with the rest of the world. What can I do about the world? What can any of us or all of us do about the major plan? What is happening in the world. Nothing at all. But I have a great deal that I can do for our own plans.

[2:15:45] [Woman speaking] ... because we hear interesting things, like one time I read in a magazine, a non-Bahá’í magazine, where it said only time we would achieve world peace is when the women would be more involved in the institutions, in government and...

[2:16:00] Well, it should in theory be true, but it isn't true at all because we've had a number of women politicians and the highest positions in this century we've had the Prime Minister of India, Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Bangladesh and so on, I mean of Sri Lankan, it's not making the least bit of difference.

[2:16:25] [Woman speaking] I have a question a little bit to Joe's... whether Joe's saved or not. [Laughter]. You know maybe I have all these veils in front of my eyes, but it seems to me that I've met some pretty spiritual Jews and Christians, I don't know very many Arabs personally, er Muslims personally, and it seems to me that they seem closer to our creator than some Bahá’ís that are [?], obviously. And obviously I understand that, you know, the latest Manifestation is the one you've got to follow. And if you really investigate this latest Manifestation, if somebody's told you about it, or heard, and you investigated it, and really investigated, then you ought to see the truth of it, and get on the boat. It's not hard. But well, I don't know, at this point I can't say that, you know, Joe Schmo who lives down the road and goes to his church or synagogue and is very sincere and seems like a very good person to me is not saved, whatever that means, again this terminology...

[2:17:45] Well, but I do think that it's perhaps a different... your metaphors is perhaps wrong in the first place. I don't think anybody knows who is saved. You don't know how saved her unsaved they are. You certainly don't know how saved or unsaved your fellow Baháʼís are because none of our business to judge each other. I mean, how do I know anything about anybody else's soul? I barely know anything about my own soul. I don't know anything about your soul or what state of development you're in or whether you're saved or not saved or a good Baháʼí or bad Baháʼí. And frankly I shouldn't have any opinion on the subject. I should mind my own business and do my own Baháʼí work. And never mind about you because my hands are full with myself. But the other thing is another principle. You're not plugged into the circuit, spiritually, like plugging into the electricity in this house unless you make the contact with the Manifestation of God for this day. And that's perfectly clear in the writings of all the religions of the world, including our own. Now if you don't like it, I don't know about that. Tell them the story about Faizi and the Arc, Violette. Or Greg say it, you repeat it. It was a delightful story.

[2:17:45] [Greg] I was remined of this when we were bobbing up and down in the middle of the sea. Mr. Faizi, Hand of the Cause, was giving a talk in Germany, and very, very short sentences which were being translated. He said we are all voyagers in the arc of the Holy Mariner. It's translated, and then he said, it may be crowded in the Arc or it may not be [?]. Or we may not like the food in the Arc. We may not like some of our fellow passengers in the Arc. We may even think the Holy Mariner doesn't know... is not guiding the boat properly. But, if we leave the Arc we are lost, we are out on the high seas.

[2:19:59] [Woman speaking] But then let me say that some souls cups are so filled that we could talk about the Faith til they are blue in the face, they don't see it, they are blind. Yet they are filled like [?], you can't say well they're the damned or they're on the wrong path if their cup is filled. And they can not seem to... like my mother for example, she could never accept the Bahá’í Faith, she's a staunch Catholic, for her to become a Bahá’í would be a catastrophe, she'd be completely miserable, completely unhappy.

[2:20:41] Well it wouldn't be a catastrophe if she accepted it.

[Woman continues] Why can't she become a Bahá’í then?

[2:20:51] Because evidently she hasn't got the receptivity. Nothing that you could do about that. I mean, anybody could do about it.

[2:21:08] [Woman speaking] You know in Georgia when the mass teachings was going on, everyone was running around needing to raise numbers right away and I couldn't understand why that was going on, and people would say, "Probie, how many Bahá’ís have you brought into the Faith this month?" And I would say "none". And months would go by, "how many Bahá’ís have you brought in in the last six months?" And I would say "none".

[2:21:43] You've got the wrong answer. You should say it's none of your damn business. [Laughter].

[2:21:48] [Woman continues] Well I felt the same way too but what happened is they say, we'll aren't you teaching? and I said well what I think is teaching, yes. They said "Well what's that?" And I said well I'm telling them about Bahá’u’lláh. And what I felt I was doing was I was just planting a seed. And I always took the opportunity to mention it. And then like five years later three people became Bahá’ís and they said "Well how did you hear about the Faith?" And they said "Some time ago this girl in a wheelchair told me about the Faith, and just the other day I thought, well I heard about something and it triggered that memory, and I said, well let me go and see. And so I said "You see, there it is, there is my teaching". You know, but it was interesting, what I tried to do in Georgia, and I try to do here is I try and mention it in many ways that I can. Well once I mention it then I let it go. And I let it become the responsibility between the person and God. But I never try to think well, why haven't they become Bahá’ís yet, you know?

[2:22:57] Probably that's your method. We all have to be allowed to teach according to our own possibilities. I for instance could never, under any circumstances sit on a wall, on a street, play the guitar, sing Baháʼí songs and get a crowd around me and hand them something to sign. It is too far from my nature, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong for somebody else to do it, you see? Now if people don't go out and enroll them the way we did the other day on that island, they are never going to have anything happen because we can't go over there and build a mission. We have no place to stay. We have no people to send over there to live. We don't have missionaries. We don't have priests. You don't have lay preachers. So all we can do is what we did do. We went over there and in good faith we told them as much as we possibly could about the Faith, that Baháʼí Faith pamphlet has all the essentials of the Baháʼí Faith in it, and it may be very simple but it's got everything in it. That is, anybody needs to know to know that this is the truth. If they just use their head and accept it, you see. And if they want to accept it you should let them. And sometimes those people become very deep Baháʼís, very attached to the Faith. And sometimes they just... as [name?] said, they drift it and they drift out, you never see them again and that's it.

[2:24:30] We should use all methods of teaching. [Audience member: But the best one is to go back]. Go back, go back. This is our great lack, lack of man power and partly whether it's sheer lack of perhaps sufficient conscientious effort, we just don't go back. We don't see them again. We don't shower more love on them. We don't answer their questions. We don't tell them more.

[2:24:59] [Woman speaking] But when we go back we don't have necessarily to give them a deepening. Sometime we just go there and just be very friendly. And we can talk about their greens and their cows and their things. They love it.

[2:25:11] [Audience member] Shoghi Effendi about teaching in Africa used a very beautiful metaphor, he said you have to nurse them. Ruhiyyih Khanum was talking about babies. He used the same thing, he said you have to nurse them. You can't just have the baby and leave it to to grow up by itself. You are the nurse, you have to go and nurse the baby.

[2:25:35] But also nobody knows, you see. If you do your duty then really, that's all you could do. But I do think you ought to make an effort to do your duty. Do what is possible for you, you see. I think one of the loveliest stories I've ever heard was an experience of Dr. Adelbert Mühlschlegel. I don't know whether you heard about it in Germany. Adelbert after the passing of the Guardian traveled tremendous amount, and he had a, wait a moment, what is the word for that? Well anyway what it amounts to is a bubble on his heart, it has a technical word... [Audience member: An aneurysm]. Aneurysm. And it can, you know, it can go just like that. It can pop and then you drop dead. Well with that condition he traveled thousands of miles all over Europe, driving the car and visiting different countries. So once he was in Sweden, his son was driving that time with him, anyway he read in the newspapers somewhere up in the north of Sweden an article saying that a man in some small Swedish town was fasting for 19 days. So he thought 19 days, that's funny. And he wasn't very far away from that place. So he went to that town and he found that man and he found that this man had been in the United States at the time that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was in America. He had attended a lecture, I don't know, in California probably visiting relatives or something, had attended a lecture of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, all he remembered was that, how wonderful the Master was, this holy man, and then he said that in the by Bahá’í faith you fasted for 19 days, from sunrise to sunset. And he bought a Baháʼí prayer book and he went back to Sweden, to his little town, and he never heard anything about the Bahá’í faith again until Adelbert to see him. But he fasted all those years, because that's all he knew. Isn't that pretty marvelous? So then Adelbert said, but there are lots of Bahá’ís in Sweden, and he talked to him about the Faith in other words, and he brought him to the National Convention which was approaching. And when this man came in this room and saw all these Swedish Baháʼís and realized that these were the people that followed ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, he had believed in so long ago, he just burst into tears and practically the whole convention burst into tears, too. But then it didn't prevent them from giving him the works and he had to read this and study that. [Laughter]. But I mean that that shows, you see, we don't know. What do we know? So very little. Just let's go ahead doing what we can conscientiously, prayerfully, our Baháʼí duty. That's all you can do. Each one of us.

[Some discussion about the dogs & barking].

[2:30:05] [Man speaking] Did the family of Bahá’u’lláh keep any pets?

[2:30:10] No. Especially dogs were considered very dirty in Islam. And although they kept the Arabs watchdogs outside, they really were never... just watchdogs or shepherd dogs, but they're never allowed inside. And they didn't keep pets in the house. They had a parrot.

[2:30:32] [Woman speaking] Didn't ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have a cat? Or am I mistaken?

[2:30:35] One time I think there was. But you see, we have the wrong concept. We picture Bahá’u’lláh sitting, you know, stroking a great big Persian cat by the hour.... [Laughter]. There may have been a cat downstairs in the mansion but he was not sitting on the lap of the Manifestation of God being stroked.

[Some discussion about it being late, and being tired. Thanks, and an ending to the talk.]